About native plugins

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
23 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

About native plugins

DeRobyJ (giakkaHotmail surrogate)
I recently got the feeling that LMMS offers too many little instrument plugins... Or better, that we already have a lot of them.
Other Daws which do offer native plugins have a similar quantity of them, but they are much bigger and "easier" to use. (with "easier" I mean that they are ready to make strong ordinary sounds with massive compulsory effects)

I think we should start to make bigger plugins, but our way. (and I'm writing "we" because I hope I'll be able to do that myself, in a year or less).
By "big" and "small" I'm saying:
- Big is a synth with exclusive features and capable of making a wide range of sounds, with a self-explanatory GUI (that doesn't require you to know everything about electronic music and take note of what is linked to what, like Monstro does D:)
- Small is either a versatile synth with not so many knobs or a synth made for 1 thing only (so it could be 3OSC, LB302, Mallets, patman, most of our current plugins)

I think that we should give more screen space to powerful but complicated things like Monstro  and Zyn (support for more automations here) and create those plugins that we didn't do because they would require a large GUI (like a sampler)

What I ask here is to tell why we should keep the size of our plugins small. One possible reason is that doing so, we allow the user to control a lot of instruments and their effects without having to minimize things.
On the other side, most of our plugins don't require much time to craft a sound, they mostly require knowledge and need effects.
Using a big synth, you pass most of the time working on the main GUI.

I'll give some examples.
Oh, for the GUI size, the plugin window is currently around 255x465. A big synth may vary from a 600x500 to a 1000x800.

First Example: a massive 8-oscillators synth, with similar features to Monstro, but also they ability to have "hertz shift" (let's say you have 2 oscillators at the same pitch, you want them to have a fixed beat. With fine detuning, that beat changes each note played, while if you shift one by a fixed frequency, that beat will always be the same. With a synth like this, you can have two similar sounds in 4 and 4 oscillators, but the second copy shifted by 5 hz: you'll get a cute wobble for dubstep and such, without using LFO and controllers)

Second Example: Octave Additive Synth, a simple additive synth but with a creative design.
You get different knobs for: Fundamental (1 armonic), Octaves (2^n armonics), Fifths (3^n armonics), and then 7^n, 11^n and 13^n.
While the Fundamental is a singular note, Octaves and Fifths have a knob with a number from 1 to 5, the others have a 1-3 one, to turn on their multiple armonics.
The amplitude level of these armonics is a Sequence given by a formula, with the first value equal to the n=1 amplitude, the others may be equal to that, decrease linearly or with a simple curve.
Of each of these, you can decide left/right phase shift and fine detuning.
(I hope it's clear, if not I can make a paint of it)

Third Example: a Sampler made for drums. The user can decide what imported sample goes in what key.


These plugins may go on another slot of the sidebar.


That's the idea! I know that programming and debugging a big synth is tough and that they require more RAM, but I think we need bigger synths!

Speaking of plugins... do we have subtractive synth?


~DeRobyJ

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

Amadeus Folego
Vesa has talked about increasing the size of the instrument windows for
2.0 and I think this is a good idea, see:
http://linux-multimedia-studio-lmms.996328.n3.nabble.com/Going-forward-LMMS-2-0-tp10709p10728.html

Now, I speak having in mind what a developer working exclusively on an
instrument and not on general LMMS means. I agree with what you mean
about our current instruments, we may even overhaul and make them more
significant, but even with the way they are today people are making a lot of
great stuff: check lmms.io forum and LSP.

Instead of creating even more instruments, having someone working on
improving LMMS with sound processing knowledge would help much more, I
know that I don't have this knowledge yet and we have a *lot* of work to
do to improve it.

See LV2 support for example: if we support it we'll have a world of
instruments at our disposal, a simple search for "lv2 drum sampler"
yields results of very high quality instruments:

- http://drumkv1.sourceforge.net/drumkv1-index.html
- http://openavproductions.com/fabla/
- http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/apps/all/drmr_lv2_drums (extended hydrogen)

I am not saying your argument is invalid, but that people already have
invested a lot of work on LV2, LADSPA, DSSI and VSTs. Users will be
able to have high-quality instruments regardless of if they're internal
or not, given that we enable support.

But a high performance, reliable, crash-free core is much better.

Unfortunately, my DSP knowledge is not that great, so I focus on UI and
fixing crashes for now. But hopefully I'll be able to overcome these
limitations.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

Phil (list)
In reply to this post by DeRobyJ (giakkaHotmail surrogate)
On Fri, 2015-01-30 at 15:42 +0100, DeRobyJ wrote:

>
> Speaking of plugins... do we have subtractive synth?

Note the 'Sub' in ZynAddSubFX :-)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

Tres Finocchiaro
The "too many instruments" argument is valid, but a broken record at this point.  People use all of them and they aren't really hurting anything except perhaps learning due to complexity at the moment, but that is where the presets make the number of instruments a non-issue.

We ship with a lot of instruments for a few reasons, but one major one is that we've historically made new plugins rather than making super plugins.

SUPERPAT:

For example, these plugins could be one single super plugin since they all play patch files:
  • Gig player
  • SF2 player
  • Patman player
These could be combined into a single plugin which simply plays Patch instrument files called "SuperPat" for example.

Obstacles for "SuperPat":
  • Plugin library dependencies are different between fluidsynth and libgig
  • DSP functionality likely varies between plugins
  • We need to break good working code for this consolation
  • Code may be harder to debug and be more complex
Possible work-arounds to these limitations:
  • Make "SuperPat" a wrapper plugin and hide Gig/SF2/Patman until a patch file is chosen
  • Rename Gig "SuperGig"
  • Rename SF2 "SuperFont"
  • Rename Patman "SuperPat"
  • Consolidate knobs and artwork to make the experience more seemless

MONSTRO:
  • Treat same as SuperPat, except allow toggle between Monstro and TripleOscillator.

WATSYN:
  • Treat same as SuperPat, except allow toggle between BitInvader, Vibed and Watsyn.
NESCALINE
  • Treat same as SuperPat, except allow toggle between Freeboy, Sfxr, Nescaline.
OTHERS
  • Perhaps combine a few others

But this is not only a lot of work, it doesn't really add a whole lot of immediate value to our project.

Third Example: a Sampler made for drums. The user can decide what imported sample goes in what key.



As far as the size of them, yeah, that's on the radar too.

-Tres

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

DeRobyJ (giakkaHotmail surrogate)
In reply to this post by Phil (list)
Il 30/01/2015 16:54, Phil (list) ha scritto:
> On Fri, 2015-01-30 at 15:42 +0100, DeRobyJ wrote:
>
>> Speaking of plugins... do we have subtractive synth?
> Note the 'Sub' in ZynAddSubFX :-)
>
>
Arg you right

@amedeus

I know that our synths are capable of incredible sounds, and I know that
the main problem of LMMS is its core (and the second main problem is its
name :P).
BUT
They look small, ridiculous, not professional, toys... Also because
presets are poor...

This year I'm studying electronic music, and in my class there are some
people that occasionally try their instruments (mostly native
instruments vsts) in their beloved DAW (mostly ableton). I do it too,
and i analyze the reactions.
When they try their sounds, I hear pads and trance synths, and
occasionally ready-to-go drum samples. Other students get close to that
source of happiness, se the GUI, and stay interested.
When I try my sounds (the christmass gift supersaw, my sky cathedral
organ, the Erazzor,  the lb302 AcidLead with delay), other students do
ask me what they are, then look at the PC, don't see a thing, and in 15
seconds they leave.

LMMS is great for cultured electronic musicians, but will never interest
DJs, wonna-bes, hybrid traditional-electronic musicians, because the GUI
doesn't have leds that say "WATCH ME I'M AWESOME" and presets that say
"3 OF US ARE ENOUGH TO COMPETE WITH AVICII"
That's my point xD

And it's not useless. Don't we need people to build a bigger community,
spread the word, and find developers and supporters?


Vesa's 400x200 plugins are fine, but they are not the big things I'm
talking about xD

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

Amadeus Folego
In reply to this post by Tres Finocchiaro
On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:35:19AM -0500, Tres Finocchiaro wrote:
> We ship with a lot of instruments for a few reasons, but one major one is that
> we've historically made new plugins rather than making super plugins.

I may be biased here but I really, really don't like this idea. Except
maybe for the SUPERPAT proposal, which can make sense.

Having a lot of instruments bundled together in one big instrument is
not exactly the same as having one high quality instrument.

3xOSC already works great, the only thing that I miss from it is
Portamento.

There are already great instruments around, any dedicated musician
is able to use them, provided we supportis available. That's why I'd rather
focus on supporting additional plugin types (LV2, DSSI, Improved VST,
Linux VST).

That's a WIN-WIN situation for the developers and musicians alike, in my
point of view.

PS: Maybe I should stop ranting about this, start reading a book
on LV2, checkout greippi's branch and make it real.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

Tres Finocchiaro
In reply to this post by DeRobyJ (giakkaHotmail surrogate)
> They look small, ridiculous, not professional, toys... Also because presets are poor...

You really have to stop and quite frankly piss off if that is your attitude.  This is very hard work.  Don't point at the Bugatti and call our little economy car small, ridiculous and not professional.  We take a lot of pride in what we do and we owe you nothing.

-Tres


On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:44 AM, DeRobyJ <[hidden email]> wrote:
Il 30/01/2015 16:54, Phil (list) ha scritto:
> On Fri, 2015-01-30 at 15:42 +0100, DeRobyJ wrote:
>
>> Speaking of plugins... do we have subtractive synth?
> Note the 'Sub' in ZynAddSubFX :-)
>
>
Arg you right

@amedeus

I know that our synths are capable of incredible sounds, and I know that
the main problem of LMMS is its core (and the second main problem is its
name :P).
BUT
They look small, ridiculous, not professional, toys... Also because
presets are poor...

This year I'm studying electronic music, and in my class there are some
people that occasionally try their instruments (mostly native
instruments vsts) in their beloved DAW (mostly ableton). I do it too,
and i analyze the reactions.
When they try their sounds, I hear pads and trance synths, and
occasionally ready-to-go drum samples. Other students get close to that
source of happiness, se the GUI, and stay interested.
When I try my sounds (the christmass gift supersaw, my sky cathedral
organ, the Erazzor,  the lb302 AcidLead with delay), other students do
ask me what they are, then look at the PC, don't see a thing, and in 15
seconds they leave.

LMMS is great for cultured electronic musicians, but will never interest
DJs, wonna-bes, hybrid traditional-electronic musicians, because the GUI
doesn't have leds that say "WATCH ME I'M AWESOME" and presets that say
"3 OF US ARE ENOUGH TO COMPETE WITH AVICII"
That's my point xD

And it's not useless. Don't we need people to build a bigger community,
spread the word, and find developers and supporters?


Vesa's 400x200 plugins are fine, but they are not the big things I'm
talking about xD

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

Tres Finocchiaro
LMMS is great for cultured electronic musicians, but will never interest DJs, wonna-bes, hybrid traditional-electronic musicians, because the GUI doesn't have leds that say "WATCH ME I'M AWESOME" and presets that say "3 OF US ARE ENOUGH TO COMPETE WITH AVICII" That's my point xD

Then make a new GUI and shut up.  What on earth do you expect from this comment?  How does this help anything?  That's like telling Honda their cars need neon lights out of the factory so that kids that can't drive will buy them.  We're not trying to compete with multi-million dollar DAWs or multi-million dollar synths, we simply can't.  But we are very receptive to positive change, so start helping and stop demanding please.


On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Tres Finocchiaro <[hidden email]> wrote:
> They look small, ridiculous, not professional, toys... Also because presets are poor...

You really have to stop and quite frankly piss off if that is your attitude.  This is very hard work.  Don't point at the Bugatti and call our little economy car small, ridiculous and not professional.  We take a lot of pride in what we do and we owe you nothing.

-Tres


On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:44 AM, DeRobyJ <[hidden email]> wrote:
Il 30/01/2015 16:54, Phil (list) ha scritto:
> On Fri, 2015-01-30 at 15:42 +0100, DeRobyJ wrote:
>
>> Speaking of plugins... do we have subtractive synth?
> Note the 'Sub' in ZynAddSubFX :-)
>
>
Arg you right

@amedeus

I know that our synths are capable of incredible sounds, and I know that
the main problem of LMMS is its core (and the second main problem is its
name :P).
BUT
They look small, ridiculous, not professional, toys... Also because
presets are poor...

This year I'm studying electronic music, and in my class there are some
people that occasionally try their instruments (mostly native
instruments vsts) in their beloved DAW (mostly ableton). I do it too,
and i analyze the reactions.
When they try their sounds, I hear pads and trance synths, and
occasionally ready-to-go drum samples. Other students get close to that
source of happiness, se the GUI, and stay interested.
When I try my sounds (the christmass gift supersaw, my sky cathedral
organ, the Erazzor,  the lb302 AcidLead with delay), other students do
ask me what they are, then look at the PC, don't see a thing, and in 15
seconds they leave.

LMMS is great for cultured electronic musicians, but will never interest
DJs, wonna-bes, hybrid traditional-electronic musicians, because the GUI
doesn't have leds that say "WATCH ME I'M AWESOME" and presets that say
"3 OF US ARE ENOUGH TO COMPETE WITH AVICII"
That's my point xD

And it's not useless. Don't we need people to build a bigger community,
spread the word, and find developers and supporters?


Vesa's 400x200 plugins are fine, but they are not the big things I'm
talking about xD

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

Amadeus Folego
On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:54:04AM -0500, Tres Finocchiaro wrote:
> Then make a new GUI and shut up.  What on earth do you expect from this
> comment?  How does this help anything?  That's like telling Honda their cars
> need neon lights out of the factory so that kids that can't drive will buy
> them.  We're not trying to compete with multi-million dollar DAWs or
> multi-million dollar synths, we simply can't.  But we are very receptive to
> positive change, so start helping and stop demanding please.

Tres, I see that you are burned out as well :(

DeRobyJ brings some very interesting issues on the table, and we should
discuss them to understand our mission and if this is an issue for us.

When I started using LMMS I had the same point of view as him, that's
why I started contributing, to improve it.

However as time passed and I learned more about synthesis and etc I
remade my mind and saw how actually a lot of considered *Professional*
DAWs are more like toys than LMMS itself. They attract people by having
juicy, easy to use, beautiful GUIs out of the box.

Few people that uses Ableton, ProTools, FL Studio, as a wannabe DJs will
ever know how ZynAddSubFX is powerful for example, because they can
simply buy a 3 figure VST that will do their wanted dubstep growl with a
lot of presets.

Anyway, we can use this opportunity to understand what LMMS's mission
is: do we want to compete with the consumerist DAW market for wannabe
DJs, or something more like QTractor which has really high quality but
is not so easy to use?

Or a mid-term? I'd vote for this one.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

DeRobyJ (giakkaHotmail surrogate)
In reply to this post by Tres Finocchiaro
I'm sorry for these words of mine, I forgot the hard work put into LMMS.
What I failed to point, and what, in my mind, my words were intended for, is the comment that a non-user of LMMS would do to those plugins, someone that just judges from the first impression.
Except for presets, I think what I've said about most of them.

My apologies. Also I lose the right to continue this topic, as I'm talking of things you already discussed, but I was too busy to read.
I hope my comments will help improving LMMS in the future.

But I have to acknowledge that I don't like showing LMMS to my colleagues (if I don't know them well), because I fear to hear the words I've written here...

Please understand that looking down to this community's work wasn't, isn't and will never be my point. I've recently started an Italian forum/fb page for LMMS, with translated news for official site and mailing lists, and started an Italian tutorial Series. I believe in LMMS as it is the program that is making me able to write music.

Lastly, I'm not able to actually help with the program yet, writing or fixing code, that's why I'm not doing it.

Il 30/01/2015 17:54, Tres Finocchiaro ha scritto:
LMMS is great for cultured electronic musicians, but will never interest DJs, wonna-bes, hybrid traditional-electronic musicians, because the GUI doesn't have leds that say "WATCH ME I'M AWESOME" and presets that say "3 OF US ARE ENOUGH TO COMPETE WITH AVICII" That's my point xD

Then make a new GUI and shut up.  What on earth do you expect from this comment?  How does this help anything?  That's like telling Honda their cars need neon lights out of the factory so that kids that can't drive will buy them.  We're not trying to compete with multi-million dollar DAWs or multi-million dollar synths, we simply can't.  But we are very receptive to positive change, so start helping and stop demanding please.


On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Tres Finocchiaro <[hidden email]> wrote:
> They look small, ridiculous, not professional, toys... Also because presets are poor...

You really have to stop and quite frankly piss off if that is your attitude.  This is very hard work.  Don't point at the Bugatti and call our little economy car small, ridiculous and not professional.  We take a lot of pride in what we do and we owe you nothing.

-Tres


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

Amadeus Folego
In reply to this post by DeRobyJ (giakkaHotmail surrogate)
On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 05:44:55PM +0100, DeRobyJ wrote:
> When I try my sounds (the christmass gift supersaw, my sky cathedral
> organ, the Erazzor,  the lb302 AcidLead with delay), other students do
> ask me what they are, then look at the PC, don't see a thing, and in 15
> seconds they leave.

What's more important, the sound you created or the status you gained
for using a professional-looking DAW amongst your friends?

For me this is the same as saying: I don't like Bose headsets because
everyone who uses Beats headsets have more status than me.

> LMMS is great for cultured electronic musicians, but will never interest
> DJs, wonna-bes, hybrid traditional-electronic musicians, because the GUI
> doesn't have leds that say "WATCH ME I'M AWESOME" and presets that say
> "3 OF US ARE ENOUGH TO COMPETE WITH AVICII"
> That's my point xD

The thing is: is it more important for you to *look* like you can compete
with AVICII or to *be* able to?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

Tres Finocchiaro
In reply to this post by DeRobyJ (giakkaHotmail surrogate)
But I have to acknowledge that I don't like showing LMMS to my colleagues (if I don't know them well), because I fear to hear the words I've written here...

Sure but Rome wasn't built in a day.  We have 80,000 lines of code between stable-1.1 and stable-1.2 right now.  We have over 600 files updated and that doesn't touch our website.

I worked with a professional musician on the Speck of Dust track and she told us no one would take us seriously unless we switched our DAW.  She was appalled it wasn't offered for Mac and didn't understand how we would ever master our track unless it was made with a commercial DAW.

This inspired me to switch to Ableton for 3 months.  I realized -- although stability and performance were better -- the actual creative process in the DAW was actually worse for myself and the musicians I was working with.

Since then, we've added Mac support and we're on track to double our daily software downloads from about this time last year.

We want your friends to like LMMS because we want our friends to like LMMS, but we do really need help.  Making a new theme is arguably more time and effort than fixing these bugs we're working on (have you ever done vector graphics?)

Lastly, I'm not able to actually help with the program yet, writing or fixing code, that's why I'm not doing it.

We have a lot of help by non-coders today. Most of us weren't coders when we started either. :)


On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 12:13 PM, DeRobyJ <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm sorry for these words of mine, I forgot the hard work put into LMMS.
What I failed to point, and what, in my mind, my words were intended for, is the comment that a non-user of LMMS would do to those plugins, someone that just judges from the first impression.
Except for presets, I think what I've said about most of them.

My apologies. Also I lose the right to continue this topic, as I'm talking of things you already discussed, but I was too busy to read.
I hope my comments will help improving LMMS in the future.

But I have to acknowledge that I don't like showing LMMS to my colleagues (if I don't know them well), because I fear to hear the words I've written here...

Please understand that looking down to this community's work wasn't, isn't and will never be my point. I've recently started an Italian forum/fb page for LMMS, with translated news for official site and mailing lists, and started an Italian tutorial Series. I believe in LMMS as it is the program that is making me able to write music.

Lastly, I'm not able to actually help with the program yet, writing or fixing code, that's why I'm not doing it.

Il 30/01/2015 17:54, Tres Finocchiaro ha scritto:
LMMS is great for cultured electronic musicians, but will never interest DJs, wonna-bes, hybrid traditional-electronic musicians, because the GUI doesn't have leds that say "WATCH ME I'M AWESOME" and presets that say "3 OF US ARE ENOUGH TO COMPETE WITH AVICII" That's my point xD

Then make a new GUI and shut up.  What on earth do you expect from this comment?  How does this help anything?  That's like telling Honda their cars need neon lights out of the factory so that kids that can't drive will buy them.  We're not trying to compete with multi-million dollar DAWs or multi-million dollar synths, we simply can't.  But we are very receptive to positive change, so start helping and stop demanding please.


On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Tres Finocchiaro <[hidden email]> wrote:
> They look small, ridiculous, not professional, toys... Also because presets are poor...

You really have to stop and quite frankly piss off if that is your attitude.  This is very hard work.  Don't point at the Bugatti and call our little economy car small, ridiculous and not professional.  We take a lot of pride in what we do and we owe you nothing.

-Tres



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

DeRobyJ (giakkaHotmail surrogate)
In reply to this post by Amadeus Folego
I know, I don't like the fact that I'll be forced to use ableton and
cubase for these same reasons. While I love LMMS and Audacity for being
powerful without annoying my RAM with graphics.
But I can't not say that trying to work a bit on that way may bring us
more users and developers. I just could have said it in a better way.


Il 30/01/2015 18:13, Amadeus Folego ha scritto:

> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 05:44:55PM +0100, DeRobyJ wrote:
>> When I try my sounds (the christmass gift supersaw, my sky cathedral
>> organ, the Erazzor,  the lb302 AcidLead with delay), other students do
>> ask me what they are, then look at the PC, don't see a thing, and in 15
>> seconds they leave.
> What's more important, the sound you created or the status you gained
> for using a professional-looking DAW amongst your friends?
>
> For me this is the same as saying: I don't like Bose headsets because
> everyone who uses Beats headsets have more status than me.
>
>> LMMS is great for cultured electronic musicians, but will never interest
>> DJs, wonna-bes, hybrid traditional-electronic musicians, because the GUI
>> doesn't have leds that say "WATCH ME I'M AWESOME" and presets that say
>> "3 OF US ARE ENOUGH TO COMPETE WITH AVICII"
>> That's my point xD
> The thing is: is it more important for you to *look* like you can compete
> with AVICII or to *be* able to?
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

Tres Finocchiaro
So you've bought an old mosque and you want to fix it up.  To do so you need both help and support.  For financial support and perhaps for pragmatic reasons, you open it up in a disheveled condition with the hope that people will come to use it as a service, but also give go it as a community and make it better.

To your dismay, many cars each day seem to enter the parking lot and immediately leave.  One of them you recognize, it is your neighbor.  You ask your neighbor why they did not enter they say:
"This building is broken.  The parking lot is gravel.  Look at that wall, it has a big crack in it.  I thought you bought this place to fix it up." 

When the mosque is finished and the walls and parking lot are fixed the neighbor parks his car and says "Wow, I can't believe what you did to this place!".

How do you as the owner feel about this?  Do you turn them away or say "let me show you this new wall!".

Community projects are built by the community that supports them.  You don't need to be a contractor to help fix a wall and you sure as hell don't have to be a developer to help fix our software.

I'm not sure we want the causal "WOW!" just yet.  We're still fixing this place up.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

musikbear
In reply to this post by DeRobyJ (giakkaHotmail surrogate)
but 'super-instruments' would take more RAM, and what would be good about that?
imo modulized components are better than big chunky multipurpose ones ..or?

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

Phil (list)
In reply to this post by DeRobyJ (giakkaHotmail surrogate)
On Fri, 2015-01-30 at 18:13 +0100, DeRobyJ wrote:

> Lastly, I'm not able to actually help with the program yet, writing or
> fixing code, that's why I'm not doing it.

One thing about a project of this scale is that it needs a whole lot
more than just programmers.  Right now there's a discussion around a
need for freely reusable default sample projects / loops / presets...
not a lick of code needed to help there. And then there's always
documentation... triaging bug reports / enhancement requests... UI
design... helping new users... tutorial videos.  etc. etc.  When you get
frustrated when you see all the things LMMS doesn't do right, look
around and find one thing you *can* help make better as that's the only
way open source projects improve.

There's a ton of work to do on things that don't involve code.  And in
helping with those, you'll be in a good position to start learning the
code if that's what you want to do (or not, if you don't want to be a
programmer)  The more people who don't know how to code but can and do
help with all this other work, it frees up the programmers to focus on
actually working on the code.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

Dave French
In reply to this post by DeRobyJ (giakkaHotmail surrogate)
I know im late to this conversation, so i wont say much.
 I do feel that plugin support is more valuable that writing plugins , If the time put into creating 3 - 4 top end native plugins was put into supporting other plugins, we could have hundreds of top end plugins, and thousands of other smaller ones. 
I'm Quite sure if all the lmms team put there efforts into a top end native plug ins, we could do it. but at what cost?

@Amadeus

 start reading a book on LV2, checkout greippi's branch and make it real.

I came across this. The documentation on making an LV2 host.

Do we have a native subtractive synth?   yes all of them. IIRC all the native synths have a filter attached to them in the instrument window.

On 30 January 2015 at 17:33, DeRobyJ <[hidden email]> wrote:
I know, I don't like the fact that I'll be forced to use ableton and
cubase for these same reasons. While I love LMMS and Audacity for being
powerful without annoying my RAM with graphics.
But I can't not say that trying to work a bit on that way may bring us
more users and developers. I just could have said it in a better way.


Il 30/01/2015 18:13, Amadeus Folego ha scritto:
> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 05:44:55PM +0100, DeRobyJ wrote:
>> When I try my sounds (the christmass gift supersaw, my sky cathedral
>> organ, the Erazzor,  the lb302 AcidLead with delay), other students do
>> ask me what they are, then look at the PC, don't see a thing, and in 15
>> seconds they leave.
> What's more important, the sound you created or the status you gained
> for using a professional-looking DAW amongst your friends?
>
> For me this is the same as saying: I don't like Bose headsets because
> everyone who uses Beats headsets have more status than me.
>
>> LMMS is great for cultured electronic musicians, but will never interest
>> DJs, wonna-bes, hybrid traditional-electronic musicians, because the GUI
>> doesn't have leds that say "WATCH ME I'M AWESOME" and presets that say
>> "3 OF US ARE ENOUGH TO COMPETE WITH AVICII"
>> That's my point xD
> The thing is: is it more important for you to *look* like you can compete
> with AVICII or to *be* able to?
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

Amadeus Folego
On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 06:42:16PM +0000, Dave French wrote:
> @Amadeus
>
>  start reading a book on LV2, checkout greippi's branch and make it real.
>
> I came across this. The documentation on making an LV2 host.
> http://lv2plug.in/pages/developing.html

Thanks Dave! I am going to take a look at it.

I don't know if you are aware, but grejppi has already put some effort
on hosting LV2 plugins inside LMMS (don't know his real name):

git://github.com/grejppi/lmms.git (master-lv2 branch).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

Uroš Maravić
In reply to this post by DeRobyJ (giakkaHotmail surrogate)
I am seriously tired of people calling LMMS synths toys and suggesting they aren't powerful. Have you ever heard Rebellion? Its a song made only by using TripleOscillator, a toy synth. There is a big potential in LMMS synths, and I prefer that they are small and non complex, because if you layer a dosen of them together, they'd still use less CPU than one instance of NI Massive. As for the wannabe-DJ-bigroom-massive-nexus producers and impressing them, I think that the music that a person makes is much more important than the tool that he/she is using to make it. If your point of music production is to impress skrillex-wannabes with your fancy DAW, you should get FL Studio, Massive, and buy a bunch of Virtual Riot sample packs, and make generic dubstep for teh 'wow's


I agree with Amadeus that its better to work on enhancing our current LV2/VST support (we already have partial LV2 instrument support using Carla, and imo that is insanely awesome) instead of making more native synths. 

-Uroš|Umcaruje

On 30 January 2015 at 18:33, DeRobyJ <[hidden email]> wrote:
I know, I don't like the fact that I'll be forced to use ableton and
cubase for these same reasons. While I love LMMS and Audacity for being
powerful without annoying my RAM with graphics.
But I can't not say that trying to work a bit on that way may bring us
more users and developers. I just could have said it in a better way.


Il 30/01/2015 18:13, Amadeus Folego ha scritto:
> On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 05:44:55PM +0100, DeRobyJ wrote:
>> When I try my sounds (the christmass gift supersaw, my sky cathedral
>> organ, the Erazzor,  the lb302 AcidLead with delay), other students do
>> ask me what they are, then look at the PC, don't see a thing, and in 15
>> seconds they leave.
> What's more important, the sound you created or the status you gained
> for using a professional-looking DAW amongst your friends?
>
> For me this is the same as saying: I don't like Bose headsets because
> everyone who uses Beats headsets have more status than me.
>
>> LMMS is great for cultured electronic musicians, but will never interest
>> DJs, wonna-bes, hybrid traditional-electronic musicians, because the GUI
>> doesn't have leds that say "WATCH ME I'M AWESOME" and presets that say
>> "3 OF US ARE ENOUGH TO COMPETE WITH AVICII"
>> That's my point xD
> The thing is: is it more important for you to *look* like you can compete
> with AVICII or to *be* able to?
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Best regards
Uroš
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: About native plugins

Amadeus Folego
On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 10:06:35PM +0100, I'm Umcaruje wrote:
> I agree with Amadeus that its better to work on enhancing our current LV2/VST
> support (we already have partial LV2 instrument support using Carla, and imo
> that is insanely awesome) instead of making more native synths. 

How do you do it?

Also re. instruments: If LMMS just had the triple oscillator, LADSPA,
LV2, built-in ZynAddSubFX, better sampling edition capabilities and
Automation UI it would be enough for me. :-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a
look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
12
Loading...