Blender example?

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Blender example?

Amadeus Folego
This week I've been taking a look at some stuff related to blender and I
realized some things in which it relates to LMMS:

1. It is a creative activity software
2. It lowers the entry barrier on a really expensive/difficult market
3. It is incredibly hard to develop/design the software in a way that
fits a professional studio workflow

So I took a look at the Store[0], the Cloud[1] and the Foundation[2]
sites.

Of course, the lmms community is orders of magnitude smaller and
it would be no fair comparison, but maybe we could investigate how we
could make the lmms ecosystem flourish in a way that we can make the
software have more support and more relationship with good music
producers?

For example, I see[3] that we have an album compiled with LMMS producers
songs, this is the kind of thing that we can try to incentive. Maybe if
we gather physically or at least with a good remote communication to
understand the needs and worries of high quality producers we can
improve lmms in an unprecedent way?

For example:  what if we could make an effort to release an album with new
songs of selected high quality producers and use these songs source to
replace our "Cool Songs"/Demos folder?

Perhaps we could even get visibility to be sponsored in some way as the
Blender community?

These are just food for thought.

0: http://www.blender3d.org/e-shop/
1: https://cloud.blender.org/open-movie/monkaa/
2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_Foundation
3: https://lmms.io/showcase/

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Re: Blender example?

Jonathan Aquilina
Blender though is not just a community of open source contributors, its also a formal foundation.

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Amadeus Folego <[hidden email]> wrote:
This week I've been taking a look at some stuff related to blender and I
realized some things in which it relates to LMMS:

1. It is a creative activity software
2. It lowers the entry barrier on a really expensive/difficult market
3. It is incredibly hard to develop/design the software in a way that
fits a professional studio workflow

So I took a look at the Store[0], the Cloud[1] and the Foundation[2]
sites.

Of course, the lmms community is orders of magnitude smaller and
it would be no fair comparison, but maybe we could investigate how we
could make the lmms ecosystem flourish in a way that we can make the
software have more support and more relationship with good music
producers?

For example, I see[3] that we have an album compiled with LMMS producers
songs, this is the kind of thing that we can try to incentive. Maybe if
we gather physically or at least with a good remote communication to
understand the needs and worries of high quality producers we can
improve lmms in an unprecedent way?

For example:  what if we could make an effort to release an album with new
songs of selected high quality producers and use these songs source to
replace our "Cool Songs"/Demos folder?

Perhaps we could even get visibility to be sponsored in some way as the
Blender community?

These are just food for thought.

0: http://www.blender3d.org/e-shop/
1: https://cloud.blender.org/open-movie/monkaa/
2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_Foundation
3: https://lmms.io/showcase/

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--
Jonathan Aquilina

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Re: Blender example?

musikbear
In reply to this post by Amadeus Folego
Amadeus Folego wrote
3. It is incredibly hard to develop/design the software in a way that
fits a professional studio workflow
thats actually kind of amusing, because i saw a short segment in german tv, that focused the sc. schlager-music, which has a boom in germany. They interviewed some of the producers, and in the background, in one of these guys studios, a pc was on. I would almost .. svare, that a rather oldish version (The yellow/green 0.14 theme) of lmms was running on that pc :D
Imo the activity on either facebook or forum, does not in any way, reflect the size of the user-base of lmms. The enourmous dl weekly, that is also in sharp contrast to the meager community,n that exists. Reasons can be plentifull, but i dare to say, that lmms is quite easy to get a grasp on, and a lot of users simply have no need for neither help or inspirations - They newer show-up in the community!





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Re: Blender example?

bubblegummer
In reply to this post by Jonathan Aquilina
(inspired by the blender open movies..)
We could make a competition for demo songs and the 5-10 highest voted ones will become the new demos shipped with lmms. The winner will be interviewed about the creation of his song and his thoughts on lmms in general, he should tell about lmms' most wanted features from his pro user perspective.
This would be a good PR-action that would lead to gaining new users, donations, and demonstrating lmms' professional capabilities.

Any thoughts on this?

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Re: Blender example?

Amadeus Folego
On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 12:56:23PM +0100, bubblegummer wrote:
> (inspired by the blender open movies..)
> We could make a competition for demo songs and the 5-10 highest voted ones will
> become the new demos shipped with lmms. The winner will be interviewed about
> the creation of his song and his thoughts on lmms in general, he should tell
> about lmms' most wanted features from his pro user perspective.
> This would be a good PR-action that would lead to gaining new users, donations,
> and demonstrating lmms' professional capabilities.
>
> Any thoughts on this?

After I implemented error notices for missing samples I noticed that
many demos that are shipped with LMMS are with this problem. Taking care
of this and providing really nice demos would be great!

One thing that I noticed is that on our community it's somewhat
difficult to find mainstream typical EDM songs (PsyTrance, House,
Dubstep, Trance, etc..) with their respective typical patterns (Bass
drops, Wobble Bass, talking bass, vocoder, etc...).

It would be great if we could show on our demos to aspiring producers
that we can make everything that is done on the big DAWs.

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Re: Blender example?

Amadeus Folego
BTW, I just listened again to Best of LMMS vol. 1 and noticed that we
have a lot of awesome examples there, if we could at least ship some
projects from it would already be a great improvement.

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Re: Blender example?

Tres Finocchiaro
BTW, I just listened again to Best of LMMS vol. 1 and noticed that we have a lot of awesome examples there, if we could at least ship some projects from it would already be a great improvement. 

Well, this assumes a few things...

  1. Landing a "Best Of" track doesn't mean the author wants to have his work shared in source form.
  2. "Best Of" tracks often use plugins which don't ship with LMMS (and we have no sample or plugin bundling support).

But what you are describing isn't something new... The team that ran "Best Of Linux" is starting a new competition soon and we'll have our second album and with that more content to showcase our software.

maybe we could investigate how we could make the lmms ecosystem flourish in a way that we can make the software have more support and more relationship with good music producers?

I agree we need a good ecosystem, but I also think we need to fix the software too (which coders like you are helping so tremendously with).... Good music producers will use our software when our software is good for music production.  If people want to know the best producers, that album is a good way to start.  Our soundcloud feed is a good place too.  Simply find one of the "Best Of" artists on SoundCloud and start listening to their followers and likes.

So in principal I agree, but I also think what you are describing is a natural progression... And also important to identify is that we need someone to run with this stuff.  The "Best Of" album is a lot of work and the team that does that are also active on our Bug Tracker, Facebook, G+, SoundCloud, lmms-devel mailing list.  We need some dedicated long-term people that are interested in promoting the software (and not necessarily themselves).

Also I'd like to add that if you look back a year, we've come a long way already in terms of public image and musician resources, not to mention the hundreds of bugs we've fixed and improved quality control we've put over the coding and releasing process. :)

-Tres


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Re: Blender example?

Tres Finocchiaro

talking bass, vocoder, etc...).

Vocoder is working with stable-1.0 and higher through our FX plugins, but it's usage needs usability improvements.  Currently, you need to do a LEFT/RIGHT pan setup with two sends to a single channel to get it working through the mixer.  The wiki has more details.

One thing that I noticed is that on our community it's somewhat difficult to find mainstream typical EDM songs (PsyTrance, House, Dubstep, Trance, etc..) with their respective typical patterns (Bass drops, Wobble Bass, 

As I'm sure you know, "bass drops" and "wobbles"  are quite complicated in nature and the examples of people doing these on YouTube with LMMS are very basic and don't sound all that good.  I'm also weary of the necessity of these things over classic synthesis and sampling tutorials.

... but even in the case of a vocoder, sample projects for our users won't help because we don't bundle the vocal samples with our project files.

It would be great if we could show on our demos to aspiring producers that we can make everything that is done on the big DAWs.

This claim isn't entirely accurate, but we're getting there.  Some of our best composers are still switching back to commercial DAWs to finalize parts of their songs.  It's like making a nice logo with Inkscape and then installing Photoshop to touch a few things up... :)

We could make a competition for demo songs and the 5-10 highest voted ones will become the new demos shipped with lmms.

... If they want it released... and if we want to bundle all of their samples and plugins (assuming they don't use all native plugins).
 
The winner will be interviewed about the creation of his song and his thoughts on lmms in general, he should tell about lmms' most wanted features from his pro user perspective. 

I think we all want to see this, but "interview" is a lot of work.  Someone needs to do this stuff and just from observing the amount of time Uros sunk into the 1.1 promo video, this will quickly turn into a large time consuming project.

Imo the activity on either facebook or forum, does not in any way, reflect the size of the user-base of lmms.

This is just a fundamental problem with Facebook with creative projects.  We can certainly share more community tracks but we have to be careful not to show favoritism.

Also, creative projects in general are subject to a lot of opinion... If you have recommendations for improving interaction, please let us know.  We're always happy to increase engagement or get help with some of the social media stuff from responsible interested parties.

The enourmous dl weekly, that is also in sharp contrast to the meager community,n that exists.

We sell the paint and the canvas for people to draw on.  Artists, especially musicians don't always collaborate well over the internet.  KVR seems to do this well, but IIRC we only have a few active members that cross over into the KVR community. 

 
Blender though is not just a community of open source contributors, its also a formal foundation.


Jonathan, you can say that until you are blue in the face and you've been saying this for years (No exaggeration).  If you or someone else wants to form, do it.  This isn't a small feat.  Stating "hey we should form" over and over doesn't get us any closer.


On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Tres Finocchiaro <[hidden email]> wrote:
BTW, I just listened again to Best of LMMS vol. 1 and noticed that we have a lot of awesome examples there, if we could at least ship some projects from it would already be a great improvement. 

Well, this assumes a few things...

  1. Landing a "Best Of" track doesn't mean the author wants to have his work shared in source form.
  2. "Best Of" tracks often use plugins which don't ship with LMMS (and we have no sample or plugin bundling support).

But what you are describing isn't something new... The team that ran "Best Of Linux" is starting a new competition soon and we'll have our second album and with that more content to showcase our software.

maybe we could investigate how we could make the lmms ecosystem flourish in a way that we can make the software have more support and more relationship with good music producers?

I agree we need a good ecosystem, but I also think we need to fix the software too (which coders like you are helping so tremendously with).... Good music producers will use our software when our software is good for music production.  If people want to know the best producers, that album is a good way to start.  Our soundcloud feed is a good place too.  Simply find one of the "Best Of" artists on SoundCloud and start listening to their followers and likes.

So in principal I agree, but I also think what you are describing is a natural progression... And also important to identify is that we need someone to run with this stuff.  The "Best Of" album is a lot of work and the team that does that are also active on our Bug Tracker, Facebook, G+, SoundCloud, lmms-devel mailing list.  We need some dedicated long-term people that are interested in promoting the software (and not necessarily themselves).

Also I'd like to add that if you look back a year, we've come a long way already in terms of public image and musician resources, not to mention the hundreds of bugs we've fixed and improved quality control we've put over the coding and releasing process. :)

-Tres



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Re: Blender example?

Amadeus Folego
Hi Tres, thanks a lot for the feedback.

I am sorry if I this discussion is redundant, etc...

I am not saying that we'll do this now, how we'll do it and even if
we are going to do, I just got a lot excited after seeing what I
interpret as a success case (Blender) and trying to figure out how that
could work out for my favourite project (LMMS), and maybe start a
friendly, constructive discussion on this subject.

I am aware of the shortcomings, difficulties and how it is incredibly
difficult to achieve some of the goals we discussed.

Any input is greatly appreciated as I am not aware of how you guys where
able to do what you have already done and how to push it further.

Thanks! Amadeus.

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Re: Blender example?

Tres Finocchiaro
I am not aware of how you guys where able to do what you have already done and how to push it further.

About a year ago, this email came out... It is a nice read... 

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Re: Blender example?

bubblegummer
In reply to this post by Tres Finocchiaro

... If they want it released... and if we want to bundle all of their samples and plugins (assuming they don't use all native plugins).
 
The winner will be interviewed about the creation of his song and his thoughts on lmms in general, he should tell about lmms' most wanted features from his pro user perspective. 

"interview" is a lot of work.  Someone needs to do this stuff..

Well, we won't hide the fact that the competitions purpose is getting new Demo Songs - so supplying the project file and using only internal synths + CC-0 samples (so we can bundle them) will be essential rules.
I volunteer for organizing this competition, if it comes off.
If we want to do a public voting to select the best songs, where could we host the voting? Is there a possibility to create a poll in the forum?

I will do the interview, or unfa might do in his next LMMS podcast? (the pilot was awesome btw!)

So the competition will result in
- great new demo songs
- hand-selected usable samples for LMMS
- an opportunity for artists to get response on their tracks
- a story for the LMMS homepage + facebook
- feedback on the software from pro users

Thoughts?

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Re: Blender example?

Tres Finocchiaro
In reply to this post by Amadeus Folego

@Phil,

Some interesting points there...  Some need correction, but I'll save those for a rainy day... :)

> speaking of which: why isn't there a link to the 'Best Of'
collection on the LMMS homepage?) 

It is one of the main tool bar buttons... Can you find it? :)


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Re: Blender example?

Amadeus Folego
In reply to this post by Amadeus Folego
Hi Phil, thanks for the detailed response, greatly appreciated!

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 11:28:36PM -0500, Phil (list) wrote:
> ...
> The real value of those projects is not the
> finished work, but rather using the projects to help figure out where
> the tool is limited and address workflow issues which results in
> improvements in Blender itself.
> ...

I totally agree with this statement, actually I wanted to pass this
message on the beginning of this thread, but it seems that I've failed.

Dicovering what blocks people from using LMMS as a fundamental tool in
their workflow would be something great.

For example: suppose you ask producer John Doe, which has produced
songs for a specific genre to try to do it on LMMS.

Sometime he'll be stuck and won't be able to reproduce a
pattern/effect/sound that would be easy on other DAW. Tres already
pointed out that this is the case a lot of times.

If we create and grow a base of knowledge of these general
usability/feature/performance issues we could focus on improving LMMS on a
greater qualitative level.

Of course, I am probably being more ambitious than I should for our
current moment: not crashing the software randomly and similar critical
issues should be our focus instead.

But we can aspire more, right? :-)

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Re: Blender example?

Tres Finocchiaro
@Phil... I took the time to respond to some of your points. :)
 
I think you're putting the cart before the horse a bit:  you're looking at the the current state of Blender but overlooking how it got there. [...] So they've gone from being a fringe project to becoming more established and visible with a virtuous cycle where the improved product attracts more users/developers/funding which continues to improve the product attracting more users...  My sense is that LMMS is in the early stages of this, but on the right track.

I think this is the best illustrative paragraph I've read in this discussion. :)

1) Plentiful *simple* example tracks:... If LMMS shipped with the coolest/best tracks that has ever existed, lazy content creators would use them into the ground rendering them not so special in no time... so where's the value?

Agreed.  The biggest value today (for example with unfa-Static) is that it really test the limitations of the software.  It is a performance testing tool. This is what I considered the benchmark for getting Apple support to the masses.  It probably has much less value to the users, and we'd be happy to re-evaluate those, but the sample/presets and tracks have taken a back seat to the fundamental usability issues, so some of them have become stale and broken.

With stable-1.2 we'll likely be introducing a warning dialog for older projects, so in some ways we're actively forcing ourselves to do some housekeeping. :)


3) Video tutorials
We're open to submissions.  We have a dedicated channel, we just need people to submit content.  Consider this an open invitation.


2) Documentation
Wiki links should auto-redirect.  If they don't, filling a bug at github.com/lmms/lmms.io is the best way to get them fixed.  We have a pretty strong team of wiki submitters, so we're in pretty good shape here.


4) the ability to search through presets and samples to find things quickly becomes an issue.
Recursive search is working in stable-1.2.  Still needs improvements, but we've already taken steps to improve this.

5) needing freely usable content for video playback demos and in YouTube videos
We plainly need help and more quality control with our samples library.  In addition, I'd like to see 1.  CC0 Soundfonts, 2. GPL2 VSTs (are they possible?) 3.  CC0 Giga files, 4. CC0 Pat files. (etc, etc)


6) A bit of background behind why some things are the way they are would be helpful
Reading the non-free LMMS book really helped me with this problem.  This is a pretty tall wish though that gets less and less likely with time.  I'm not sure this is something we can tackle ourselves, but rather with the help of very knowledgeable /educated composers... 


On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 2:33 AM, Amadeus Folego <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Phil, thanks for the detailed response, greatly appreciated!

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 11:28:36PM -0500, Phil (list) wrote:
> ...
> The real value of those projects is not the
> finished work, but rather using the projects to help figure out where
> the tool is limited and address workflow issues which results in
> improvements in Blender itself.
> ...

I totally agree with this statement, actually I wanted to pass this
message on the beginning of this thread, but it seems that I've failed.

Dicovering what blocks people from using LMMS as a fundamental tool in
their workflow would be something great.

For example: suppose you ask producer John Doe, which has produced
songs for a specific genre to try to do it on LMMS.

Sometime he'll be stuck and won't be able to reproduce a
pattern/effect/sound that would be easy on other DAW. Tres already
pointed out that this is the case a lot of times.

If we create and grow a base of knowledge of these general
usability/feature/performance issues we could focus on improving LMMS on a
greater qualitative level.

Of course, I am probably being more ambitious than I should for our
current moment: not crashing the software randomly and similar critical
issues should be our focus instead.

But we can aspire more, right? :-)


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Re: Blender example?

bubblegummer

Plentiful *simple* example tracks:... If LMMS shipped with the coolest/best tracks that has ever existed, lazy content creators would use them into the ground rendering them not so special in no time... so where's the value?
yeah, that's quite true... but as a consequence we should rather have example tracks which show off single internal intruments/effects/feature than demo songs that should show what an artist can do with the software. If the software comes with poor or unprofessional sounding demo songs, some users may think that this is the limit of LMMS. As a consequence we should remove all demo songs and make simple examples. (I would volunteer!)

I still like the idea of open tracks, like the blender open movies, where all the source files are accessible. But maybe they shouldn't get included in LMMS...

  -bg

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Re: Blender example?

diiz
In reply to this post by Tres Finocchiaro
On 01/16/2015 04:05 PM, Tres Finocchiaro wrote:
> 4. CC0 Pat files. (etc, etc)

Oh, that takes me back... My first x86 computer had a Gravis Ultrasound,
when I was a kid. That was in the 90s.

It is now 2015... is GUS patch support really useful to anyone anymore?
I can't imagine new ones being produced anymore... it's a completely
outdated format (only supports 16-bit samples) that is only useful for
legacy support - even then, it'd probably be easier to just convert all
existing .pat files to soundfonts or something.

Should we just deprecate PatMan? Is there anyone, even one person, still
using it today?

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Re: Blender example?

Tres Finocchiaro
Should we just deprecate PatMan? Is there anyone, even one person, still using it today?

I've scoured the internet for patch files to no avail, so I cannot speak to the useful of them. :)


On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Vesa <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 01/16/2015 04:05 PM, Tres Finocchiaro wrote:
> 4. CC0 Pat files. (etc, etc)

Oh, that takes me back... My first x86 computer had a Gravis Ultrasound,
when I was a kid. That was in the 90s.

It is now 2015... is GUS patch support really useful to anyone anymore?
I can't imagine new ones being produced anymore... it's a completely
outdated format (only supports 16-bit samples) that is only useful for
legacy support - even then, it'd probably be easier to just convert all
existing .pat files to soundfonts or something.

Should we just deprecate PatMan? Is there anyone, even one person, still
using it today?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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GigeNET is offering a free month of service with a new server in Ashburn.
Choose from 2 high performing configs, both with 100TB of bandwidth.
Higher redundancy.Lower latency.Increased capacity.Completely compliant.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/gigenet
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Re: Blender example?

Uroš Maravić
I've scoured the internet for patch files to no avail

Here is the biggest GUS patches collection that I know of: http://freepats.zenvoid.org/ 

I never used patman though, not sure if I should start. 

-Uroš|Umcaruje

On 16 January 2015 at 21:19, Tres Finocchiaro <[hidden email]> wrote:
Should we just deprecate PatMan? Is there anyone, even one person, still using it today?

I've scoured the internet for patch files to no avail, so I cannot speak to the useful of them. :)


On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Vesa <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 01/16/2015 04:05 PM, Tres Finocchiaro wrote:
> 4. CC0 Pat files. (etc, etc)

Oh, that takes me back... My first x86 computer had a Gravis Ultrasound,
when I was a kid. That was in the 90s.

It is now 2015... is GUS patch support really useful to anyone anymore?
I can't imagine new ones being produced anymore... it's a completely
outdated format (only supports 16-bit samples) that is only useful for
legacy support - even then, it'd probably be easier to just convert all
existing .pat files to soundfonts or something.

Should we just deprecate PatMan? Is there anyone, even one person, still
using it today?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Year. New Location. New Benefits. New Data Center in Ashburn, VA.
GigeNET is offering a free month of service with a new server in Ashburn.
Choose from 2 high performing configs, both with 100TB of bandwidth.
Higher redundancy.Lower latency.Increased capacity.Completely compliant.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/gigenet
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Choose from 2 high performing configs, both with 100TB of bandwidth.
Higher redundancy.Lower latency.Increased capacity.Completely compliant.
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GigeNET is offering a free month of service with a new server in Ashburn.
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Higher redundancy.Lower latency.Increased capacity.Completely compliant.
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Best regards
Uroš
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Re: Blender example?

diiz
In reply to this post by diiz
On 01/16/2015 10:27 PM, Spekular R wrote:
>
> @vesa I'm not sure about removing it. If we could offer it as a
> separate download that'd be a good solution imo,
>

How is that a good solution? We'd still have to maintain the code, only
now it'd be even less useful (if that's possible) because most people
wouldn't even know about it.

> but we currently can't afaik.
>

Sure we can. They just have to be compiled against a specific LMMS version.

> Tangent, but making all our synths/plugins modular and just having the
> defaults preinstalled would be super neat.
>

What would be the benefit of this? Are you envisioning a future where we
have thousands of native LMMS plugins? If we have plugins that we
maintain and support, I see no reason at all to exclude them from the
release builds.

Distributing external compiled plugins for LMMS is already technically
possible (you just have to compile a version of the plugin for each
major LMMS version * each platform). However, since we don't have a
stable external API for plugins, I doubt anyone is going to start
developing LMMS-plugins outside of the LMMS source tree. Distributing
closed-source commercial plugins for LMMS is also impossible due to GPL
(a LMMS plugin only works in LMMS and is thus seen as an extension of
the software, as far as licensing is concerned) so I can't see a reason
someone wouldn't want their plugin included in LMMS (and we could just
include it anyway, because GPL).

> Also plugin folders.
>

If we at some point have 2-3 times more plugins than now, then sure...
right now it'd be kind of pointless.

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Re: Blender example? (GUS)

DeRobyJ (giakkaHotmail surrogate)
In reply to this post by Uroš Maravić
I'm using those patches to make pokemon-like music.
You can create a whole orchestra out of them, but:
- The sounds are not HQ, so you may have to us a lot of different effects for each kind of instruments, like huge reverb on string ensembles, and such.
- When they go to distortion, they make a really bad noise, so avoid it

On the other side, I love them because they sound like a orchestras from nintendo DS games (such as Pokemon and Zelda) and because they are really light on the CPU.

Il 16/01/2015 21:47, I'm Umcaruje ha scritto:
I've scoured the internet for patch files to no avail

Here is the biggest GUS patches collection that I know of: http://freepats.zenvoid.org/ 

I never used patman though, not sure if I should start. 

-Uroš|Umcaruje




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