Quantcast

LMMS: the future - ideas?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
41 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

LMMS: the future - ideas?

diiz
So, I'm just going to put this out here. The future of LMMS is very
uncertain right now. Sure we have lots of activity on the mailing list,
people working enthusiastically on what they can, and that's all great!
But there are some looming issues that are getting worse as we go on.

The problem is, we're getting to the point where the limitations of the
current LMMS core engine are starting to severely handicap what we can
do with the software.

Sure, we can improve functionality - sample tracks, automation, etc. -
but many things are hard or impossible to do because of the limitations:
Jack support, RT-safety, being able to integrate with external software,
reliable live usage...

Paul Giblock had the idea of migrating LMMS to use his Unison core. This
would be a good idea, if we had the resources to make that happen, but
currently... let's look at the situation: I currently write about 50% of
the code for LMMS, and the rest are small improvements - mostly UI,
build system, localization or small optimizations... and I'm not skilled
enough to do RT- or systems coding, or to design a new engine for LMMS.
The ones who do have the skills (Toby, Paul) are too busy with RL and
don't have enough time to do this kind of work, and AFAIK none of our
other developers have the required skillsets to migrate LMMS to a new
core (please correct me if I'm wrong!).

So let's brainstorm some ideas how we can get over this hurdle. If we
could get a modern, RT-safe engine for LMMS, there's such a huge
potential that could be done with it - we could really make LMMS into a
professional-grade DAW that is still easy enough to get into for beginners.

I'll throw some ideas out here:

1. Kickstarter campaign for a hired developer? Do a kickstarter to raise
some funds, then use the money to hire a developer to help with the
migration to a new core. Do we have enough of a userbase that this could
be feasible?

2. Try to find a developer who'd be willing to work on this project.
This has (and is) been tried, with no luck so far.

3. Try to improve the current engine gradually. I've been attempting
this, but again, see re: lack of skill in RT-coding. Paul has also
earlier opined that the current engine is unsalvageable, not sure about
that but it definitely is challenging.

4. Google Summer of Code? This might be an option for next year, we
might want to start looking into this if it's something we want to do.

Ok that's all I got for now. Anyone else have any ideas? Please feel
free to pipe in, there are no bad ideas at this point.

If we can figure out a game plan, we could then skip the 1.3 release in
order to concentrate on the codebase rehaul, and present a brand new and
improved LMMS 2.0 next year. That'd be awesome if we could somehow make
that happen...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

oeai-2
the very first idea i had was to invite someone from other OS project
psycle, qtracktor, ardour, zyna -> maybe not the software suite, but
software synth
maybe jack-dev itself

the kisckstarter idea i had was not in to going for developers, but to
propose something new for people/company
the company idea is more like startup and for both cases there are some
obligations, because of money rise

as for idea i am using enlightenment as Desktop Environment and i'd like
to make sounds for e, but not the midi or ogg/mp3, with lmms engine i
can create any instrument and after integration with DE it would be nice
to export song or sounds set as the desktop theme -> going forward they
are supported by samsung, this means that this DE can be used for
android -> mobile device sound engine - that's what i was thinking for
kickstarter of lmms-project.


On 29.07.2014 13:23, Vesa wrote:

> So, I'm just going to put this out here. The future of LMMS is very
> uncertain right now. Sure we have lots of activity on the mailing list,
> people working enthusiastically on what they can, and that's all great!
> But there are some looming issues that are getting worse as we go on.
>
> The problem is, we're getting to the point where the limitations of the
> current LMMS core engine are starting to severely handicap what we can
> do with the software.
>
> Sure, we can improve functionality - sample tracks, automation, etc. -
> but many things are hard or impossible to do because of the limitations:
> Jack support, RT-safety, being able to integrate with external software,
> reliable live usage...
>
> Paul Giblock had the idea of migrating LMMS to use his Unison core. This
> would be a good idea, if we had the resources to make that happen, but
> currently... let's look at the situation: I currently write about 50% of
> the code for LMMS, and the rest are small improvements - mostly UI,
> build system, localization or small optimizations... and I'm not skilled
> enough to do RT- or systems coding, or to design a new engine for LMMS.
> The ones who do have the skills (Toby, Paul) are too busy with RL and
> don't have enough time to do this kind of work, and AFAIK none of our
> other developers have the required skillsets to migrate LMMS to a new
> core (please correct me if I'm wrong!).
>
> So let's brainstorm some ideas how we can get over this hurdle. If we
> could get a modern, RT-safe engine for LMMS, there's such a huge
> potential that could be done with it - we could really make LMMS into a
> professional-grade DAW that is still easy enough to get into for beginners.
>
> I'll throw some ideas out here:
>
> 1. Kickstarter campaign for a hired developer? Do a kickstarter to raise
> some funds, then use the money to hire a developer to help with the
> migration to a new core. Do we have enough of a userbase that this could
> be feasible?
>
> 2. Try to find a developer who'd be willing to work on this project.
> This has (and is) been tried, with no luck so far.
>
> 3. Try to improve the current engine gradually. I've been attempting
> this, but again, see re: lack of skill in RT-coding. Paul has also
> earlier opined that the current engine is unsalvageable, not sure about
> that but it definitely is challenging.
>
> 4. Google Summer of Code? This might be an option for next year, we
> might want to start looking into this if it's something we want to do.
>
> Ok that's all I got for now. Anyone else have any ideas? Please feel
> free to pipe in, there are no bad ideas at this point.
>
> If we can figure out a game plan, we could then skip the 1.3 release in
> order to concentrate on the codebase rehaul, and present a brand new and
> improved LMMS 2.0 next year. That'd be awesome if we could somehow make
> that happen...
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Infragistics Professional
> Build stunning WinForms apps today!
> Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
> Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> _______________________________________________
> LMMS-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
>


--
RA


--
Symbiants
oe ai

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

diiz
In reply to this post by diiz
On 07/29/2014 12:58 PM, atumra wrote:
> the very first idea i had was to invite someone from other OS project
> psycle, qtracktor, ardour, zyna -> maybe not the software suite, but
> software synth
> maybe jack-dev itself

Has been tried, but those people are mostly busy with their own
respective projects. Probably the most they can offer is advice and
information, not actual coding (especially not a large scale coding
project like this).


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

oeai-2
well, it's usual case.
the next step of engine can be a new music-codec - so maybe ask some
mpg123 or FLAC
imagine that oscillators are different language types,
to encode few waves (phrases) you just need to set few words for it
for hard cases you'll need clear bit types (soundtrack), but they also
can be splitted for parts
yes it is something complicated, but as a music device with low-end encoding
this can be a new "sound-machine" device kickstarter campaign if you
ready for it (a better way of ipod with own codec)
it is similar to vector images encoders, that's probably something new.
not sure on energy consumption, but the fun thing will be to add some
new sounds and effects to music aka DJ-FX
and DJing software is a very large audience, many companies producing
different hard and soft that is in demand.


On 29.07.2014 14:03, Vesa wrote:

> On 07/29/2014 12:58 PM, atumra wrote:
>> the very first idea i had was to invite someone from other OS project
>> psycle, qtracktor, ardour, zyna -> maybe not the software suite, but
>> software synth
>> maybe jack-dev itself
> Has been tried, but those people are mostly busy with their own
> respective projects. Probably the most they can offer is advice and
> information, not actual coding (especially not a large scale coding
> project like this).
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Infragistics Professional
> Build stunning WinForms apps today!
> Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
> Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> _______________________________________________
> LMMS-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
>


--
RA


--
Symbiants
oe ai

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

diiz
On 07/29/2014 01:20 PM, oeai wrote:
well, it's usual case.
the next step of engine can be a new music-codec - so maybe ask some 
mpg123 or FLAC
imagine that oscillators are different language types,
to encode few waves (phrases) you just need to set few words for it
for hard cases you'll need clear bit types (soundtrack), but they also 
can be splitted for parts
yes it is something complicated, but as a music device with low-end encoding
this can be a new "sound-machine" device kickstarter campaign if you 
ready for it (a better way of ipod with own codec)
it is similar to vector images encoders, that's probably something new.
not sure on energy consumption, but the fun thing will be to add some 
new sounds and effects to music aka DJ-FX
and DJing software is a very large audience, many companies producing 
different hard and soft that is in demand.

I'm not really sure what you're even suggesting here, but I think you're probably misunderstanding the issue. We're not looking to fund a music device or a new codec or any such thing. This is about LMMS, and how we can continue developing LMMS as a software, nothing more.

The problem is that the core part of the LMMS software itself is broken and we need to fix that so that LMMS can have a future and not die, and for this we need developers who are capable of writing such code.

What I'm looking for here is ideas for how we can make that happen.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

diiz
In reply to this post by oeai-2
What I'm saying is, your ideas for music devices and such are very
interesting and all, but I don't really see how they would help us fix
the LMMS software.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

oeai-2
In reply to this post by diiz
Well it is all about it, i thought

To get into a kickstarter campaign you need to propose something for
end-users - the device is that thing.

to get more developers you can propose lmms-engine or codec for other
markets not only for musicians, these markets i've described.
For example Firefox has integrated Unreal Engine API into their
platform, this means that there is more interest for games
and game-dev probably needs also soft-synth for music backgrounds and
just sounds, they all got a lot of developers who probably can help to
integrate sound engine and sharpen it, just to get rid of flash (in case
of codec) or to create more complex themes and lower disk capacity (as a
game sound engine).



On 29.07.2014 14:29, Vesa wrote:

> On 07/29/2014 01:20 PM, oeai wrote:
>> well, it's usual case.
>> the next step of engine can be a new music-codec - so maybe ask some
>> mpg123 or FLAC
>> imagine that oscillators are different language types,
>> to encode few waves (phrases) you just need to set few words for it
>> for hard cases you'll need clear bit types (soundtrack), but they also
>> can be splitted for parts
>> yes it is something complicated, but as a music device with low-end encoding
>> this can be a new "sound-machine" device kickstarter campaign if you
>> ready for it (a better way of ipod with own codec)
>> it is similar to vector images encoders, that's probably something new.
>> not sure on energy consumption, but the fun thing will be to add some
>> new sounds and effects to music aka DJ-FX
>> and DJing software is a very large audience, many companies producing
>> different hard and soft that is in demand.
>
> I'm not really sure what you're even suggesting here, but I think
> you're probably misunderstanding the issue. We're not looking to fund
> a music device or a new codec or any such thing. This is about LMMS,
> and how we can /continue developing LMMS as a software/, nothing more.
>
> The problem is that the /core part of the LMMS software itself/ is
> broken and we need to fix that so that LMMS can have a future and not
> die, and for this we need developers who are capable of writing such code.
>
> What I'm looking for here is ideas for how we can make that happen.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Infragistics Professional
> Build stunning WinForms apps today!
> Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
> Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> LMMS-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel


--
Symbiants
oe ai


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

diiz
On 07/29/2014 02:45 PM, oeai wrote:
> Well it is all about it, i thought
>
> To get into a kickstarter campaign you need to propose something for
> end-users - the device is that thing.

No, we don't need to. What would be promised to users would be the
improvement of the LMMS software itself.

The idea of a device is not really realistic in itself: firstly, do we
have anyone here with any experience in designing hardware, marketing,
manufacturing, etc. all that that entails? If not, it would be doomed to
failure. Secondly, even if we started a campaign to create a device,
then the money raised in the campaign would go towards designing and
making that device, and it still wouldn't solve the problems of LMMS,
the software.

> to get more developers you can propose lmms-engine or codec for other
> markets not only for musicians, these markets i've described.
> For example Firefox has integrated Unreal Engine API into their
> platform, this means that there is more interest for games
> and game-dev probably needs also soft-synth for music backgrounds and
> just sounds, they all got a lot of developers who probably can help to
> integrate sound engine and sharpen it, just to get rid of flash (in case
> of codec) or to create more complex themes and lower disk capacity (as a
> game sound engine).

Ok, this is again all very interesting but I'm sorry to say none of this
is even remotely realistic. Codecs don't work that way... Do you know
what it takes to design a codec and get it into such a state that it's
in common use? That involves a lot of work, lots of developers and
manhours, sponsorship from corporations/organizations who make the
decisions about which codecs get supported (who also have their own
interests in mind), then standardization through some large standards
body, dealing with swpats, getting browsers/operating systems to support
it, and all this requires that the codec offers something new that
people (and businesses) will want to use it...

Also, a pro-audio engine is not something you can just create as a
generic project that can be reused as a game engine or some such. Games
don't need pro-quality sound engines, they have their own toolkits (SDL
et al.) that provide entirely sufficient facilities for sound and DSP
for their needs.

In this context when we say "engine" we're not talking about something
comparable to flash or SDL. We're not talking about an external library
here - we're talking about the core part of the LMMS software itself. It
needs to be designed for LMMS, it needs to be a tight part of the LMMS
codebase, it can't work as a glue-on attachment, it can't be something
that is designed to be ported from application to application (like SDL
or some game engines).

In short, we need to be able to rewrite the central part of the LMMS
software itself. It's great that you're thinking creatively, but
unfortunately your ideas aren't very realistic.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

drunken jesus
In reply to this post by diiz
I'm not very knowledgeable on coding at all & I'm not familiar with the Unison Core you mentioned but I know there have been numerous programmers who have released their source code for tracker sequencers. I know trackers operate in a very different fashion than LMMS but it seems to me in theory you could take the audio engine from one of those and code a sequencer to be like LMMS.

Rebuilding from the ground up seems like a pretty daunting task even if a successful kickstarter campaign brought in a talented programmer, nearly all the fully functional DAW's have been in development anywhere between 5-15 years or more

Also another idea the guy who made SFXR also developed a sequencer of sorts awhile ago
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

musikbear
Perhaps a 2.0 on an other core is not a 2 y prospect, but a 5+ ..?
imo we should improve and expand what we got. But all work on current core, should have a pin stuck in it. A pin marked 're-usable' as module. Vesa, you are the one who can say if such modulation at all is possible? If it is, then a 2.0lmms would not be a 'scratch' project, and further devellopment on 1.x, would also be a little'working for the future'
Does that sounds like garbadge?
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

diiz
In reply to this post by drunken jesus
On 07/29/2014 03:21 PM, drunken jesus wrote:
> I'm not very knowledgeable on coding at all & I'm not familiar with the
> Unison Core you mentioned but I know there have been numerous programmers
> who have released their source code for tracker sequencers. I know trackers
> operate in a very different fashion than LMMS but it seems to me in theory
> you could take the audio engine from one of those and code a sequencer to be
> like LMMS.

Again, nice idea, but just not realistic. Most of the trackers (other
than Renoise, and maybe Psycle) are very old. Something like Impulse
Tracker was a masterpiece of coding in its time, but back then, 16-bit
samples were state-of-the-art, realtime synthesis was just a dream, and
CPUs were single core... there's practically nothing in that that could
be translated into a modern audio engine.

Also, if we consider any already existing audio engine, the code must be
such that it is possible to integrate it into the LMMS codebase. This
also means it must be written in C++ and has to be "compatible" (ie. not
conflict) with Qt and other technologies that LMMS uses.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

diiz
In reply to this post by musikbear
On 07/29/2014 04:07 PM, musikbear wrote:
> Perhaps a 2.0 on an other core is not a 2 y prospect, but a 5+ ..?
> imo we should improve and expand /what we got/.

No offense musikbear, but what you're saying is analoguous to: "oh, I
know our house is slanted and the foundations are crumbling, but maybe
we can still keep building the second floor"...

What we got will only take us so far, eventually we WILL hit a wall
where it's no longer possible to get by with "what we got". We can
probably make do and keep patching things up the best we can, but for
the long run, we're going to need to fix the foundations. Here, I'm
looking for ideas for how we can achieve that.

>  But all work on current
> core, should have a pin stuck in it. A pin marked /'re-usable' as module/.
> Vesa, you are the one who can say if such /modulation/ at all is possible?
> If it is, then a 2.0lmms would not be a 'scratch' project, and further
> devellopment on 1.x, would also be a little'working for the future'
> Does that sounds like garbadge?

I'm not really sure what you're suggesting here... we can try to develop
and improve the current engine, but I'm not sure if it's possible to
improve it sufficiently. Some argue, it isn't. I don't know, it could
turn out that fixing the current engine would be even more work than
just replacing it with a better one.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

Tres Finocchiaro
In reply to this post by musikbear
This is an interesting topic to me. 

I tried visualizing the idea of a kickstarter as well. Here's an email I sent Toby in 2012:

Tobydox,
Would you be interested in a Kickstarter project for your work on LMMS? The idea is to get some of the user's input on what they consider important bugs, and to compensate you monetarily (and/or other developers) for the hard work.
Let me know.  I already have some interest from some small donors.  I know people are willing to spend big bucks on commercial software, proposing that a fraction of that toward this excellent product I think would be well received by the LMMS community. I look forward to hearing back. I have some ideas of my own, but I want to see if you are interested in the idea first.

He did reply with some useful information, but for the most part it was a no-go due to the mentoring time required to get a new developer involved. 

Two years  later we are probably in a better situation as it appears we have more people active with the codebase making the mentoring process more possible.

Here was my wish list in 2012:
Toby,
My biggest win:
  • Allow copy/paste/drag multiple tracks through the song editor (which I understand is not a small task).
Also would like to:
  • Hire a graphic designer for branding (if that's ok)
  • Provide enough money to remove the Babylon toolbar prompt from the Windows installer (Edit 2014: This has since been removed)
My friends would like:
  • Better handling of VST crashes
  • Better handling of when sound stops working (more complains on windows than Linux)
And on my wish list is:
  • Easier bug tracking (such as through "report a problem" style menu) (Edit 2014:  GitHub has helped this a lot)
  • Mac support (perhaps we would have enough money to fund the purchase of a Mac + developer tools). (Edit 2014: Bought the hardware myself, almost there)
  • Portability:  Loading third party sound fonts/samples from relative paths to home directory between Linux and Windows. (i.e. /home/tfino/lmms/samples/piano.sf2 maps to C:\Users\tfino\lmms\samples\piano.sf2) (Edit 2014: This has been fixed as well)
My motivation comes from a new project where we are working very hard with pure LMMS.  One collaborator is on Linux, two are on Windows and two are on Macintosh.
I also recently finished doing a technical review for a LMMS book for Packt Publishing, which has given me a lot of motivation and understanding with the LMMS software!

 I understand nearly none of this addresses a brand new core but this was before I got actively involved on the developer team.  If I were to recreate this list now, it would be a bit different.

I'd like to make a race car reference here a bit... Although musicBear and oeai may not be talking about redesigning the motor, the body and paint is what everyone sees, so their concerns are likely to help get buy-in regardless of the difficulty or significance.

From a "how to get developers" perspective... I struggle to get developers for my personal projects (and I pay very well) so this is a tough task.  Most people won't leave their day job for a contract so they're working two jobs and one is likely to suffer.  Furthermore, you'll need a project manager to spearhead the campaign too.  I don't know if the people we have currently could manage a project of that size.

I'm very interested to see how this topic develops. :)

-Tres


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

Jonathan Aquilina
In reply to this post by diiz
I think the best way forward work on getting the new core integrated all these features and issues in terms of crashes etc that we run into could potentially be mitigated with an RT safe core.

As well what I want to spear head and start working on are unit tests as well as functional and integration testing besides travis.


On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 3:44 PM, Vesa <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 07/29/2014 04:07 PM, musikbear wrote:
> Perhaps a 2.0 on an other core is not a 2 y prospect, but a 5+ ..?
> imo we should improve and expand /what we got/.

No offense musikbear, but what you're saying is analoguous to: "oh, I
know our house is slanted and the foundations are crumbling, but maybe
we can still keep building the second floor"...

What we got will only take us so far, eventually we WILL hit a wall
where it's no longer possible to get by with "what we got". We can
probably make do and keep patching things up the best we can, but for
the long run, we're going to need to fix the foundations. Here, I'm
looking for ideas for how we can achieve that.

>  But all work on current
> core, should have a pin stuck in it. A pin marked /'re-usable' as module/.
> Vesa, you are the one who can say if such /modulation/ at all is possible?
> If it is, then a 2.0lmms would not be a 'scratch' project, and further
> devellopment on 1.x, would also be a little'working for the future'
> Does that sounds like garbadge?

I'm not really sure what you're suggesting here... we can try to develop
and improve the current engine, but I'm not sure if it's possible to
improve it sufficiently. Some argue, it isn't. I don't know, it could
turn out that fixing the current engine would be even more work than
just replacing it with a better one.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel



--
Jonathan Aquilina

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

Jonathan Aquilina
I forgot to add in my last email. if we focus on a new core. I think we should extend how long 1.1 is going to be supported for as well as how often we are going to release bug fix releases for it.


On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Jonathan Aquilina <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think the best way forward work on getting the new core integrated all these features and issues in terms of crashes etc that we run into could potentially be mitigated with an RT safe core.

As well what I want to spear head and start working on are unit tests as well as functional and integration testing besides travis.


On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 3:44 PM, Vesa <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 07/29/2014 04:07 PM, musikbear wrote:
> Perhaps a 2.0 on an other core is not a 2 y prospect, but a 5+ ..?
> imo we should improve and expand /what we got/.

No offense musikbear, but what you're saying is analoguous to: "oh, I
know our house is slanted and the foundations are crumbling, but maybe
we can still keep building the second floor"...

What we got will only take us so far, eventually we WILL hit a wall
where it's no longer possible to get by with "what we got". We can
probably make do and keep patching things up the best we can, but for
the long run, we're going to need to fix the foundations. Here, I'm
looking for ideas for how we can achieve that.

>  But all work on current
> core, should have a pin stuck in it. A pin marked /'re-usable' as module/.
> Vesa, you are the one who can say if such /modulation/ at all is possible?
> If it is, then a 2.0lmms would not be a 'scratch' project, and further
> devellopment on 1.x, would also be a little'working for the future'
> Does that sounds like garbadge?

I'm not really sure what you're suggesting here... we can try to develop
and improve the current engine, but I'm not sure if it's possible to
improve it sufficiently. Some argue, it isn't. I don't know, it could
turn out that fixing the current engine would be even more work than
just replacing it with a better one.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel



--
Jonathan Aquilina



--
Jonathan Aquilina

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

diiz
In reply to this post by Tres Finocchiaro
On 07/29/2014 04:51 PM, Tres Finocchiaro wrote:
He did reply with some useful information, but for the most part it was a no-go due to the mentoring time required to get a new developer involved. 

Two years  later we are probably in a better situation as it appears we have more people active with the codebase making the mentoring process more possible.

I think if we can get a paid developer, part of the project would be orientation, where all of us could pitch in to help the developer get acquintated with the codebase. This isn't the biggest hurdle here IMO.


Here was my wish list in 2012:
 I understand nearly none of this addresses a brand new core but this was before I got actively involved on the developer team.  If I were to recreate this list now, it would be a bit different.

Yes. Most of the things on your wishlist are things that we can probably implement just fine on our own. The core engine is the problematic part. IMO if we do get a paid developer, we should focus their efforts on the hard parts, otherwise it would just be wasteful.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

diiz
In reply to this post by Jonathan Aquilina
On 07/29/2014 04:54 PM, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
> I think the best way forward work on getting the new core integrated

Yeah sure, but how do we achieve that when we don't have enough active
developers who are capable of doing that? That's the problem we're
trying to solve.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

Jonathan Aquilina
I would love to hear Paul's take on this as the code had bit rotted a bit and he was working on reviving it a bit.


On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 4:00 PM, Vesa <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 07/29/2014 04:54 PM, Jonathan Aquilina wrote:
> I think the best way forward work on getting the new core integrated

Yeah sure, but how do we achieve that when we don't have enough active
developers who are capable of doing that? That's the problem we're
trying to solve.



--
Jonathan Aquilina

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

Rob Kudla
In reply to this post by diiz
On 07/29/2014 05:23 AM, Vesa wrote:
> 1. Kickstarter campaign for a hired developer? Do a kickstarter to
> raise some funds, then use the money to hire a developer to help with
> the migration to a new core. Do we have enough of a userbase that this
> could be feasible?

Regardless of the size of the userbase, the thing about Kickstarter is that
the two kinds of software projects that normally get funded are (a) games
or (b) "fun" apps. The only example of the latter I can think of was a
graphics-heavy Android homescreen that got funded last year and as far as I
know, has never come to fruition anyway.

This is definitely more of an infrastructure thing, and I don't think we
can present it as sexy enough to get people to pledge money to achieve it.
There's no financial downside as far as I know, but there's a pretty big
goodwill downside to having a failed Kickstarter on your record. Just ask
Canonical.

I've gotta run and I see Tres and a few others have responded since I
started writing this, but I don't even know what kind of rewards would be
tantalizing enough to make an infrastructure project sexy.

Maybe there have been successful infrastructure projects on Kickstarter,
but I don't know of any. If someone can come up with an example, maybe it
could actually work.

> 4. Google Summer of Code? This might be an option for next year, we
> might want to start looking into this if it's something we want to do.

This does seem like exactly the sort of thing the GSoC would be good for,
but I wonder if you'd need to throw an Android or ChromeOS angle in there
to get Google to fund it nowadays. Don't be evil unless the stockholders
ask really nicely, and all.

Come to think of it, having an Android port of LMMS could be worth a
Kickstarter in and of itself -- an exhaustively complete, free and open
source music compositional tool on Android that's more than a bad port of a
'90s tracker? I'd even pledge that. It could be a stealthy way of getting
"LMMS-ng" funded, whether it ends up using Unison or something from
scratch.

I'd also eagerly pledge for an open-source web-based evolution of
LMMS (completely decoupling the engine from the UI). But LMMS on the
desktop already fits my meager needs in its current state, weird Zyn
integration and flaky Jack support and all. I've never been one to do
real-time effects in computer music; it just seems unnecessary when you can
render at top quality on fairly low-end hardware without having to set up a
whole pipeline by hand every time, play it back and hope to avoid xruns. I
realize some people are probably using LMMS as a performance tool, but for
me it's purely composition and arrangement; even mixing down is something I
do in Audacity.

I just realized it's been 10 years since I've written Qt code and 5 years
since I completed my last serious LMMS project, so my opinion doesn't and
shouldn't count for much. But I've pledged Kickstarter projects (mostly
game- and hardware-related) and I've been watching GSoC with interest for
years.

Rob

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|  
Report Content as Inappropriate

Re: LMMS: the future - ideas?

diiz
On 07/29/2014 05:17 PM, Rob Kudla wrote:
> Regardless of the size of the userbase, the thing about Kickstarter is that
> the two kinds of software projects that normally get funded are (a) games
> or (b) "fun" apps. The only example of the latter I can think of was a
> graphics-heavy Android homescreen that got funded last year and as far as I
> know, has never come to fruition anyway.

There are examples of open source projects getting funding from
Kickstarter. Openshot video editor recently had a very succesful
campaign, raising (IIRC) tens of thousands of dollars. On a smaller
scale: A GIMP developer recently had a succesful campaign for
implementing a single new feature for GIMP.


> This is definitely more of an infrastructure thing, and I don't think we
> can present it as sexy enough to get people to pledge money to achieve it.

We can word it as "keep LMMS alive". Raise the stakes...

> This does seem like exactly the sort of thing the GSoC would be good for,
> but I wonder if you'd need to throw an Android or ChromeOS angle in there
> to get Google to fund it nowadays.

I don't think so, there are plenty of projects in GSoC that have nothing
to do with Android/ChromeOS.

> Come to think of it, having an Android port of LMMS could be worth a
> Kickstarter in and of itself

Maybe in the future. Best to take it one kickstarter at a time...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infragistics Professional
Build stunning WinForms apps today!
Reboot your WinForms applications with our WinForms controls.
Build a bridge from your legacy apps to the future.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=153845071&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
LMMS-devel mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
123
Loading...