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Paid Dev Fundraising - Pitivi Style?

Spekular R

Pitivi, an open source video editor, has been running a rather successful looking fundraiser to get to 1.0 here:
http://fundraiser.pitivi.org
Maybe we could take some ideas from them if we still want to do the paid developer thing? For example they're taking their donations through GNOME, which should ease the administrative/legal burdens of raising money. Their feature voting idea is pretty cool too.


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Re: Paid Dev Fundraising - Pitivi Style?

Tres Finocchiaro
Thanks for sharing!  It is quite interesting how many of those expensive items we do for zero euros! :)

But having a larger organization back the project is a pretty good idea, but be weary of what that could sign us up for. Once money gets exchanged, you need to be prepared to talk about it, and that would take a point person to take the responsibility and run with it!

-Tres


On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 3:59 AM, Spekular R <[hidden email]> wrote:

Pitivi, an open source video editor, has been running a rather successful looking fundraiser to get to 1.0 here:
http://fundraiser.pitivi.org
Maybe we could take some ideas from them if we still want to do the paid developer thing? For example they're taking their donations through GNOME, which should ease the administrative/legal burdens of raising money. Their feature voting idea is pretty cool too.


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Re: Paid Dev Fundraising - Pitivi Style?

Spekular R

I can't find any info about fundraising with GNOME anywhere, other than the little info in the FAQ. I suppose someone could send an email to the fundraiser address*. Or maybe it's better to look for another organization?

*I'm a bit hesitant to do so myself, since I'm not really in a posititon to represent LMMS.


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Re: Paid Dev Fundraising - Pitivi Style?

Tres Finocchiaro
Or maybe it's better to look for another organization?

Yes, I would recommend another one.  Video editing may fall in alignment with what Gnome wants to offer with their default desktop per FAQ: "nice integration of neat GNOME technologies (such as GTK+, Clutter, GLib, etc.)".

Not only are we not GTK based (we're QT, putting us in more alignment with KDE in some ways) but we're also not something that average end-users will use, so we may not make sense as part of a Desktop environment portfolio ("Studio" distributions being the exception here).

I'm a bit hesitant to do so myself, since I'm not really in a posititon to represent LMMS

As far as reaching out on behalf of LMMS, all it takes is 1. Convincing the team you can do it and 2. Doing it.

If you can get moral buy-in from this mailing list, you don't need to worry what your position is.  That's why we ask.  If you go back in history, you'll see these types of things happen quite often... We don't want another situation like we had with the samples library (someone taking onus and then bailing when we need them most).  I hope that helps. :)


On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Spekular R <[hidden email]> wrote:

I can't find any info about fundraising with GNOME anywhere, other than the little info in the FAQ. I suppose someone could send an email to the fundraiser address*. Or maybe it's better to look for another organization?

*I'm a bit hesitant to do so myself, since I'm not really in a posititon to represent LMMS.



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Re: Paid Dev Fundraising - Pitivi Style?

Stian Jørgensrud
In reply to this post by Spekular R
They seemed a lot more organized, and do they live on the same location as well?

At first I really disliked the mentality that the more you pay the more you decide, but it will definitively encourage people to pay, and the program will most likely only benefit from it. The developer/we can decide what functions people can vote for, so there are some control here... I guess I liked the democratic process of it...
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Re: Paid Dev Fundraising - Pitivi Style?

Stian Jørgensrud
In reply to this post by Spekular R
Oh, and an idea for a fundraiser: Include something people really want. Improving the core is hard to present as important for many (I believe), while better Sampletracks is something a lot of people want and maybe pay for. A little bit of both is probably the way to go.
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Re: Paid Dev Fundraising - Pitivi Style?

Tres Finocchiaro
Improving the core is hard to present as important for many

Yeah, there's nothing "sexy" about replacing the foundation of a house.

I believe we are currently in a uniquely good position with the project.  We have refactoring, core rewriting, and bug fixing happening.  We have wiki, website, social media and an album.  We have a privately sold book, a free community book, and every days all of those things seem to get better.

So, we're organized too... Just enough.  We may not be democratic, but we are progressive.  If someone wants to organize a fund raiser, please do.  Until then, we can keep putting our nose to the grindstone (so to speak).

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Re: Paid Dev Fundraising - Pitivi Style?

diiz
On 01/07/2015 05:32 AM, Tres Finocchiaro wrote:
> If someone wants to organize a fund raiser, please do.

I actually talked about this with Harry recently and it seems that
organizing the funding isn't all that complicated as we've maybe been
assuming.

Basically, the idea is that if we do an Indiegogo campaign to collect
the funds, we don't need to worry about taxes or any of that stuff, as
the developer can receive the funds from the campaign directly and pays
any income tax etc. on their side.

So really, we probably don't need any big organization to make this
happen...

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Re: Paid Dev Fundraising - Pitivi Style?

Tres Finocchiaro
the developer can receive the funds from the campaign directly and pays any income tax etc. on their side.

Sure, that covers the income taxes that get spent on a human that is responsible for paying income taxes, but what happens to the money that doesn't get spent?  Or do we just liquidate on developers prior to the end of the tax season?

-Tres


On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 11:38 PM, Vesa <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 01/07/2015 05:32 AM, Tres Finocchiaro wrote:
> If someone wants to organize a fund raiser, please do.

I actually talked about this with Harry recently and it seems that
organizing the funding isn't all that complicated as we've maybe been
assuming.

Basically, the idea is that if we do an Indiegogo campaign to collect
the funds, we don't need to worry about taxes or any of that stuff, as
the developer can receive the funds from the campaign directly and pays
any income tax etc. on their side.

So really, we probably don't need any big organization to make this
happen...

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Re: Paid Dev Fundraising - Pitivi Style?

diiz
On 01/07/2015 03:21 PM, Tres Finocchiaro wrote:
the developer can receive the funds from the campaign directly and pays any income tax etc. on their side.

Sure, that covers the income taxes that get spent on a human that is responsible for paying income taxes, but what happens to the money that doesn't get spent?  Or do we just liquidate on developers prior to the end of the tax season?

Not sure exactly how Indiegogo operates, probably we can set some kind of upper limit on the funding. Or just tell people not to donate anymore or something, if it comes to that...

Or just hire the developer for a longer time - problem solved.

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Re: Paid Dev Fundraising - Pitivi Style?

Dave French

There's always something to spend money on. Not only development,

On 7 Jan 2015 13:48, "Vesa" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 01/07/2015 03:21 PM, Tres Finocchiaro wrote:
the developer can receive the funds from the campaign directly and pays any income tax etc. on their side.

Sure, that covers the income taxes that get spent on a human that is responsible for paying income taxes, but what happens to the money that doesn't get spent?  Or do we just liquidate on developers prior to the end of the tax season?

Not sure exactly how Indiegogo operates, probably we can set some kind of upper limit on the funding. Or just tell people not to donate anymore or something, if it comes to that...

Or just hire the developer for a longer time - problem solved.

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Re: Paid Dev Fundraising - Pitivi Style?

Spekular R

Like server costs? :P


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Re: Paid Dev Fundraising - Pitivi Style?

Tres Finocchiaro
In reply to this post by Dave French


On Jan 7, 2015 8:56 AM, "Dave French" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> There's always something to spend money on. Not only development,

People keep making these claims, but please offer examples.  Our only annual expenses today are the gandi domain service.   If we had an extra $5,000 USD (for example) what would we spend it on?  Mac Minis for our development team?  Who makes the determination? 

More money is generally a problem if we don't gave a clear plan as to what we will do with it. :)


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Re: Paid Dev Fundraising - Pitivi Style?

Tres Finocchiaro
Not sure exactly how Indiegogo operates, probably we can set some kind of upper limit on the funding. Or just tell people not to donate anymore or something, if it comes to that... 
> Or just hire the developer for a longer time - problem solved. 

Yes, this can work so as long as a few things remain constant:

  1. Quoted/contracted price is fixed
  2. Contractor meets requirements and is paid in full at completion of work
  3. Work is actually completed
But this can be determined on the contract agreement.  If the developer works from estimates and bills hourly this idea falls apart.  Most budgets fall apart when they're fixed.  The word "budget" actually means estimate in nearly all contexts of the word, so we need to be mindful of that.

I'm not trying to make this bigger than it is, I just don't want the liability of this money on my income/bank/paypal/etc.

As we stand right now, we've broken even between donations and expenses for 2014... And even if we had not.... If I'm in the red, that's great because I can write off what I've spent as a donation.   However, if that ratio is in the black, I have to report it, or spend it on the project prior to the fiscal year end (AFAIK). 

So your statement about spending it on a developer remains true, we just need someone willing to collect and spend and we need a plan for what to do in the exceptional cases.


On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Tres Finocchiaro <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Jan 7, 2015 8:56 AM, "Dave French" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> There's always something to spend money on. Not only development,

People keep making these claims, but please offer examples.  Our only annual expenses today are the gandi domain service.   If we had an extra $5,000 USD (for example) what would we spend it on?  Mac Minis for our development team?  Who makes the determination? 

More money is generally a problem if we don't gave a clear plan as to what we will do with it. :)



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Re: Paid Dev Fundraising - Pitivi Style?

diiz
On 01/07/2015 06:28 PM, Tres Finocchiaro wrote:
Not sure exactly how Indiegogo operates, probably we can set some kind of upper limit on the funding. Or just tell people not to donate anymore or something, if it comes to that... 
> Or just hire the developer for a longer time - problem solved. 

Yes, this can work so as long as a few things remain constant:

  1. Quoted/contracted price is fixed
  2. Contractor meets requirements and is paid in full at completion of work
  3. Work is actually completed
But this can be determined on the contract agreement.  If the developer works from estimates and bills hourly this idea falls apart.  Most budgets fall apart when they're fixed.  The word "budget" actually means estimate in nearly all contexts of the word, so we need to be mindful of that.

I'm not trying to make this bigger than it is, I just don't want the liability of this money on my income/bank/paypal/etc.

No, see, that's the idea here - the money would go directly to the developer. None of us need to handle any financial transactions.


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Re: Paid Dev Fundraising - Pitivi Style?

Tres Finocchiaro
No, see, that's the idea here - the money would go directly to the developer. None of us need to handle any financial transactions. 

Oh... So the developer raises the money himself?


On Wed, Jan 7, 2015 at 11:34 AM, Vesa <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 01/07/2015 06:28 PM, Tres Finocchiaro wrote:
Not sure exactly how Indiegogo operates, probably we can set some kind of upper limit on the funding. Or just tell people not to donate anymore or something, if it comes to that... 
> Or just hire the developer for a longer time - problem solved. 

Yes, this can work so as long as a few things remain constant:

  1. Quoted/contracted price is fixed
  2. Contractor meets requirements and is paid in full at completion of work
  3. Work is actually completed
But this can be determined on the contract agreement.  If the developer works from estimates and bills hourly this idea falls apart.  Most budgets fall apart when they're fixed.  The word "budget" actually means estimate in nearly all contexts of the word, so we need to be mindful of that.

I'm not trying to make this bigger than it is, I just don't want the liability of this money on my income/bank/paypal/etc.

No, see, that's the idea here - the money would go directly to the developer. None of us need to handle any financial transactions.


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Re: Paid Dev Fundraising - Pitivi Style?

Stian Jørgensrud
Tres Finocchiaro wrote
Oh... So the developer raises the money himself?
I think we need to settle on that option, as I recall that would be the best option to avoid thinking about taxes and bureaucracy. So the money would go directly to the selected developer.

Thinking about what happens with the money if the goal isn't reached, I suggest having backup goals, smaller goals so that if the community for example raise 200 dollars and the goal is X dollars (a lot more probably?) there won't be a lot of money laying around.
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