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Shortcut changes

Stian Jørgensrud
I will make an attempt to change some shortcut keys (first on paper, then test with the program). Are there some keys you absolutely want to keep? Any ideas you want to throw out? You want mnemonics? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemonics_(keyboard)

Goals
Nr. 1. Same key for same action across different Editors.
(Nr. 2. Easy to remember and fast/easy to press.)

If you know some literature I should be reading before doing this, tell me!

I would like to keep Ctrl + drag for connecting things, cause that is perhaps the most important and only shortcut you need to remember in LMMS, you can work your way around without remembering the others. I am going to keep the main/general shortcuts CTRL + E (for export), Ctrl + Tab (changing window) and so on.
Before I have started I believe that the changes mainly (or only) will be in the Editors.
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Re: Shortcut changes

Tres Finocchiaro
I'd recommend making a thread in our tracker with a bulleted list or a table of shortcuts with columns for Component, Action, Shortcut (Existing) , Shortcut (Preferred) and let people make recommendations.  Once we have a complete list and reach an agreeable consensus, then we can take charge it getting it implemented.

I know certain software offers several shortcuts to the same function... for example, in firefox, the "/" will search just like vi; you can access the Address Bar through either ALT+D or ALT+L (OS dependent), or navigate back a page via Backspace or Alt + Left Arrow.  For ergonomics, I vote we allow multiple shortcuts to the same action if we find a place where it is justified.


On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 2:41 PM, Stian Jørgensrud <[hidden email]> wrote:
I will make an attempt to change some shortcut keys (first on paper, then
test with the program). Are there some keys you absolutely want to keep? Any
ideas you want to throw out? You want mnemonics?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemonics_(keyboard)

Goals
Nr. 1. Same key for same action across different Editors.
(Nr. 2. Easy to remember and fast/easy to press.)

If you know some literature I should be reading before doing this, tell me!

I would like to keep Ctrl + drag for connecting things, cause that is
perhaps the most important and only shortcut you need to remember in LMMS,
you can work your way around without remembering the others. I am going to
keep the main/general shortcuts CTRL + E (for export), Ctrl + Tab (changing
window) and so on.
Before I have started I believe that the changes mainly (or only) will be in
the Editors.



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Re: Shortcut changes

musikbear
1+ for tresf sugestion, but consensus.. :p
I also think theres been several discussion around this already?
Try a search in hub - a lot of thoughts on this, afair
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Re: Shortcut changes

Jonathan Aquilina
Whats going to happen to those users who are Mac users in terms of short cuts. One thing I can tell you in terms of keys that are the same regardless of os and keyboard are the ctrl and alt keys.

On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 11:16 AM, musikbear <[hidden email]> wrote:
1+ for tresf sugestion, but consensus.. :p
I also think theres been several discussion around this already?
Try a search in hub - a lot of thoughts on this, afair



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Re: Shortcut changes

diiz
In reply to this post by Stian Jørgensrud
On 12/21/2014 09:41 PM, Stian Jørgensrud wrote:
> I will make an attempt to change some shortcut keys

I don't think we should change any shortcuts until we can make them
configurable.

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Re: Shortcut changes

Stian Jørgensrud
diiz wrote
On 12/21/2014 09:41 PM, Stian Jørgensrud wrote:
> I will make an attempt to change some shortcut keys

I don't think we should change any shortcuts until we can make them
configurable.
Ok... then I don't think you should implement any more shortcuts until it is configurable, cause it is starting to become a chaos, and many has suggested it already is chaos.
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Re: Shortcut changes

Stian Jørgensrud
In reply to this post by Tres Finocchiaro
Tres Finocchiaro wrote
I'd recommend making a thread in our tracker with a bulleted list or a
table of shortcuts with columns for Component, Action, Shortcut (Existing)
, Shortcut (Preferred) and let people make recommendations.  Once we have a
complete list and reach an agreeable consensus, then we can take charge it
getting it implemented.
- [hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel
Thanks for the tips Tres and musikBear. And Jonathan, am I safe if I keep away from the Windows/Start on Win keyboards and COMMAND/Apple on Mac? I hope that the rest automagically maps to the equivalents.

According to this site there are five key that can vary. http://macs.about.com/od/faq1/f/windowskeyboard.htm Anyway, I think we should rely on using Shift, Alt and Ctrl as modifier keys. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modifier_key
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Re: Shortcut changes

Tres Finocchiaro
In reply to this post by Jonathan Aquilina
Whats going to happen to those users who are Mac users in terms of short cuts. One thing I can tell you in terms of keys that are the same regardless of os and keyboard are the ctrl and alt keys.

Read the code.  Try the software.  Stop asking stupid questions.  Mac is fine.

I really hate to appease these pure-laziness-conversation-bomb-questions, especially when they come from someone who's been on the project team for years... but I'll bite:


Does that answer your question?

I don't think we should change any shortcuts until we can make them configurable.

I think this depends on what we come up with. If we find out there's only a handful of inconsistencies, we may find ourselves targeting better shortcuts for 1.2.

On the other hand if the proposal breaks a lot of usability, I tend to agree with this statement.

-Tres 


On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 5:24 AM, Jonathan Aquilina <[hidden email]> wrote:
Whats going to happen to those users who are Mac users in terms of short cuts. One thing I can tell you in terms of keys that are the same regardless of os and keyboard are the ctrl and alt keys.

On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 11:16 AM, musikbear <[hidden email]> wrote:
1+ for tresf sugestion, but consensus.. :p
I also think theres been several discussion around this already?
Try a search in hub - a lot of thoughts on this, afair



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Re: Shortcut changes

Stian Jørgensrud
In reply to this post by Stian Jørgensrud
Stian Jørgensrud wrote
diiz wrote
On 12/21/2014 09:41 PM, Stian Jørgensrud wrote:
> I will make an attempt to change some shortcut keys

I don't think we should change any shortcuts until we can make them
configurable.
Ok... then I don't think you should implement any more shortcuts until it is configurable, cause it is starting to become a chaos, and many has suggested it already is chaos.
Well, someone still have to do the work sometime, so I might as well start now.
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Re: Shortcut changes

Tres Finocchiaro
In reply to this post by Stian Jørgensrud
Ok... then I don't think you should implement any more shortcuts until it is configurable, cause it is starting to become a chaos, and many has suggested it already is chaos.

Let's please move forward with this bug report.  Telling each other what we can't do  gets us no closer to our goal.

-Tres


On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 7:37 AM, Stian Jørgensrud <[hidden email]> wrote:
diiz wrote
> On 12/21/2014 09:41 PM, Stian Jørgensrud wrote:
>> I will make an attempt to change some shortcut keys
>
> I don't think we should change any shortcuts until we can make them
> configurable.

Ok... then I don't think you should implement any more shortcuts until it is
configurable, cause it is starting to become a chaos, and many has suggested
it already is chaos.



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Re: Shortcut changes

Tres Finocchiaro
In reply to this post by Stian Jørgensrud
am I safe if I keep away from the Windows/Start on Win keyboards and COMMAND/Apple on Mac? I
hope that the rest automagically maps to the equivalents.

Please don't worry about Mac.  QT handles these things just fine.  In terms of using the Meta key (aka the Windows key), that discussion can be handled in the bug report.  There's no reason to preemptively speculate on these things.  Jonathan is just asking stupid questions to stir conversation that he has no intentions on taking responsibility for or researching rather than helping us come to a decision.  So for the 3rd time, don't worry about Mac. :)

-Tres


On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 8:00 AM, Stian Jørgensrud <[hidden email]> wrote:
Tres Finocchiaro wrote
> I'd recommend making a thread in our tracker with a bulleted list or a
> table of shortcuts with columns for Component, Action, Shortcut (Existing)
> , Shortcut (Preferred) and let people make recommendations.  Once we have
> a
> complete list and reach an agreeable consensus, then we can take charge it
> getting it implemented.
> -

> Tres.Finocchiaro@

> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel

Thanks for the tips Tres and musikBear. And Jonathan, am I safe if I keep
away from the Windows/Start      on Win keyboards and COMMAND/Apple on Mac? I
hope that the rest automagically maps to the equivalents.

According to this site there are five key that can vary.
http://macs.about.com/od/faq1/f/windowskeyboard.htm Anyway, I think we
should rely on using Shift, Alt and Ctrl as modifier keys.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modifier_key



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Re: Shortcut changes

Stian Jørgensrud
In reply to this post by Tres Finocchiaro
Tres Finocchiaro wrote
I'd recommend making a thread in our tracker with a bulleted list or a
table of shortcuts with columns for Component, Action, Shortcut (Existing)
, Shortcut (Preferred) and let people make recommendations.
What did you mean with Component?
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Re: Shortcut changes

Tres Finocchiaro
> What did you mean with Component?

Piano Roll, Instrument Dialog, etc.

-Tres 


On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Stian Jørgensrud <[hidden email]> wrote:
Tres Finocchiaro wrote
> I'd recommend making a thread in our tracker with a bulleted list or a
> table of shortcuts with columns for Component, Action, Shortcut (Existing)
> , Shortcut (Preferred) and let people make recommendations.

What did you mean with Component?



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Re: Shortcut changes

Stian Jørgensrud
Tres Finocchiaro wrote
>
> > What did you mean with Component?


Piano Roll, Instrument Dialog, etc.

-Tres

- [hidden email]
Not sure I will bother with the component but instead use it as headline for the different tables like the wiki does it.
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Re: Shortcut changes

Tres Finocchiaro
> Not sure I will bother with the component but instead use it as headline for the different tables like the wiki does it.

If you want a good basis for comparison, I would recommend you illustrate a good basic comparison. :)




On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Stian Jørgensrud <[hidden email]> wrote:
Tres Finocchiaro wrote
>>
>> > What did you mean with Component?
>
>
> Piano Roll, Instrument Dialog, etc.
>
> -Tres
>
> -

> Tres.Finocchiaro@


Not sure I will bother with the component but instead use it as headline for
the different tables like the wiki does it.



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Re: Shortcut changes

Stian Jørgensrud
In reply to this post by Stian Jørgensrud
Would it be possible to use the numbers 1 trough 9 for a shortcut? Add six bars by pressing Insert + 6 for example. Would every possibility need to be hard coded?
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Re: Shortcut changes

Tres Finocchiaro

This seems possible.  No, they don't need individual hardcoding necessarily.


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Re: Shortcut changes

Stian Jørgensrud
In reply to this post by diiz
OK, I am doing pretty fine with the shortcuts, it is going to be very familiar to you, and the changes I soon will propose I hope will make sense.

Since I am trying to keep the same shortcuts in the different Editors I noticed that Song Editor don't have shortcuts for the draw and select tool like the Piano Roll. Fine enough, but then I realized that there are no erase button (or mode)???
My thoughts then was that either the Piano Roll shouldn't have that button, or the Song Editor should probably get one, it would be very useful, at least if it had worked like right click in Piano Roll.

Also a question I have wanted to ask. Do you ever think Piano Roll is going to have a context menu on the blue notes?
Cause then it would make sense having that on right click as the Song Editor, but deleting with a simple right click is so easy... So maybe Ctrl + right click for the context menu throughout the software would be better?
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Re: Shortcut changes

Tres Finocchiaro
My thoughts then was that either the Piano Roll shouldn't have that button,
or the Song Editor should probably get one, it would be very useful, at
least if it had worked like right click in Piano Roll.

Absolutely.  These are the inconsistencies we need spelled out! :)


On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 6:40 PM, Stian Jørgensrud <[hidden email]> wrote:
OK, I am doing pretty fine with the shortcuts, it is going to be very
familiar to you, and the changes I soon will propose I hope will make sense.

Since I am trying to keep the same shortcuts in the different Editors I
noticed that Song Editor don't have shortcuts for the draw and select tool
like the Piano Roll. Fine enough, but then I realized that there are no
erase button (or mode)???
My thoughts then was that either the Piano Roll shouldn't have that button,
or the Song Editor should probably get one, it would be very useful, at
least if it had worked like right click in Piano Roll.

Also a question I have wanted to ask. Do you ever think Piano Roll is going
to have a context menu on the blue notes?
Cause then it would make sense having that on right click as the Song
Editor, but deleting with a simple right click is so easy... So maybe Ctrl +
right click for the context menu throughout the software would be better?



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Re: Shortcut changes

diiz
In reply to this post by Stian Jørgensrud
On 12/26/2014 01:40 AM, Stian Jørgensrud wrote:
> So maybe Ctrl +
> right click for the context menu throughout the software would be better?

No, it wouldn't.

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