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Survey results

Stian Jørgensrud
You can see some autogenerated graphics and view most of the results here:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1N9gdp2J74ep_VcOiQMcWicHRpr0lcDhEzY45NtwxBmc/viewanalytics

And all the answers are here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fPWTO34b_mgHLVJjahRxlXTXGOP3dWbObwNKwaljnjE/edit?usp=sharing


It is extremely interesting to view the answers, so you should analyze it a bit for yourself. Much more fun than reading the following.
I am going to analyze just a tiny bit now :)
* Surprising that half of the users have used LMMS for 2 years or more. Or maybe those who used LMMS just for months didn't answer...

* Strange that controllers and the FX mixer are considered easier to learn than the Automation Editor (?)

* According to the users the best with LMMS is active development, easy to use and out of the box. And obviously free and opensource. (Read all answers in the links)

* Somewhat frightening that 24% says they never solved the problem they had with LMMS

* Answer from one user when asked how he solved the problem: "I reported it and it was fixed in less than 2 days ... most impressed". Not common, I guess :p

* Apart from not knowing about LMMS on G+, YT and SC, which for YT and SC are natural as they recently was created, the LSP is the site most people haven't heard about!!! What??

* 10% don't follow LMMS on G+ or Facebook. More than expected.

* (The questions for Facebook, but mostly G+ isn't as accurate as they could be because of human error, sorry)

* Almost everyone got a 64 bit computer!

* (The questions about RAM and cores in the CPU shows that most users aren't that techincal savvy or didn't bother answer)

* LMMS is not considered good for mastering (not used by many people for that). A bit surprising (?)

* Suprising that most people makes music just for themselves (I thought that meant not share it with others). Could be that the purpose is for themselves, but they still publishes to social media.
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Re: Survey results

Tres Finocchiaro

Thanks for these results.  It is very refreshing to see so many responses!


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Re: Survey results

Diego Rodrigues
In reply to this post by Stian Jørgensrud
I didn't even knew there was a survey.
Is it still on or am I too late?


Best,

Diego Rodrigues

On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 10:34 PM, Stian Jørgensrud <[hidden email]> wrote:
You can see some autogenerated graphics and view most of the results here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1N9gdp2J74ep_VcOiQMcWicHRpr0lcDhEzY45NtwxBmc/viewanalytics And all the answers are here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fPWTO34b_mgHLVJjahRxlXTXGOP3dWbObwNKwaljnjE/edit?usp=sharing It is extremely interesting to view the answers, so you should analyze it a bit for yourself. Much more fun than reading the following. I am going to analyze just a tiny bit now :) * Surprising that half of the users have used LMMS for 2 years or more. Or maybe those who used LMMS just for months didn't answer... * Strange that controllers and the FX mixer are considered easier to learn than the Automation Editor (?) * According to the users the best with LMMS is active development, easy to use and out of the box. And obviously free and opensource. (Read all answers in the links) * Somewhat frightening that 24% says they never solved the problem they had with LMMS * Answer from one user when asked how he solved the problem: "I reported it and it was fixed in less than 2 days ... most impressed". Not common, I guess :p * Apart from not knowing about LMMS on G+, YT and SC, which for YT and SC are natural as they recently was created, the LSP is the site most people haven't heard about!!! What?? * 10% don't follow LMMS on G+ or Facebook. More than expected. * (The questions for Facebook, but mostly G+ isn't as accurate as they could be because of human error, sorry) * Almost everyone got a 64 bit computer! * (The questions about RAM and cores in the CPU shows that most users aren't that techincal savvy or didn't bother answer) * LMMS is not considered good for mastering (not used by many people for that). A bit surprising (?) * Suprising that most people makes music just for themselves (I thought that meant not share it with others). Could be that the purpose is for themselves, but they still publishes to social media. -- View this message in context: http://linux-multimedia-studio-lmms.996328.n3.nabble.com/Survey-results-tp11591.html Sent from the lmms-devel mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ _______________________________________________ LMMS-devel mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/lmms-devel

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Re: Survey results

Stian Jørgensrud
Diego Rodrigues wrote
I didn't even knew there was a survey.
Is it still on or am I too late?


Best,

Diego Rodrigues
It has ended, we had 1 respondent answering yesterday until I ended it around nine o'clock. Total respondents are 120.

I see that I forgot to post a link to the survey to the mailing list. I thought I posted a reply to the original issue, oh well... sorry.
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Re: Survey results

Tres Finocchiaro
I see that I forgot to post a link to the survey to the mailing list. I thought I posted a reply to the original issue, oh well... sorry.

Yeah, it didn't appear on my Facebook wall, so I missed out on it too.  @Stian food for thought... we may also consider boosting the survey financially next time so that it appears on more Facebook walls.  We have a few dollars to spend on this (in the 10s of dollars, not 100s) or I'd be happy to donate some dollars towards this next time to yield a bigger sampling.

-Tres


On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 3:02 AM, Stian Jørgensrud <[hidden email]> wrote:
Diego Rodrigues wrote
> I didn't even knew there was a survey.
> Is it still on or am I too late?
>
>
> Best,
>
> Diego Rodrigues

It has ended, we had 1 respondent answering yesterday until I ended it
around nine o'clock. Total respondents are 120.

I see that I forgot to post a link to the survey to the mailing list. I
thought I posted a reply to the original issue, oh well... sorry.



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Sent from the lmms-devel mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: Survey results

Tres Finocchiaro
In reply to this post by Stian Jørgensrud
* Almost everyone got a 64 bit computer!

No they don't.  This is why we have to be careful with what we infer from survey results... 

Win32 download stats:
  • Approx 30,000 downloads since 12/23
Win64 download stats:
  • Approx 42,000 downloads since 12/23
OSX download stats (64-bit)
  • Approx 5,000 downloads since 12/23

(Linux download stats aren't available at this time, sorry.)


So, what this suggests is that 64-bit users are more likely to answer this survey (versus 32-bit users).   Probably safe to say about many elements of the survey are equally as misleading. (According to the survey, close to half of our users are on Linux, which would be terrific, but is also statistically unlikely -- instead this suggests that Linux users are more likely to answer this survey).  Let's be careful not to draw any definitive conclusions from this survey alone. :)

-Tres
 

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Re: Survey results

Tres Finocchiaro
Hmm... I just realized how misleading that question is... 

64 bit computer

Users could have an AMD64 cpu running Windows XP and they wouldn't be lying. 

Users could have a Core 2 Duo running Ubuntu 14.04 x86 and they wouldn't be lying.

Users could have a first generation AMD64 cpu running Windows XP 64-bit, but running 32-bit LMMS and they wouldn't be lying.



-Tres

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Re: Survey results

Dave French
does 64bit lmms run 32bit vst's?

On 10 February 2015 at 15:39, Tres Finocchiaro <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hmm... I just realized how misleading that question is... 

64 bit computer

Users could have an AMD64 cpu running Windows XP and they wouldn't be lying. 

Users could have a Core 2 Duo running Ubuntu 14.04 x86 and they wouldn't be lying.

Users could have a first generation AMD64 cpu running Windows XP 64-bit, but running 32-bit LMMS and they wouldn't be lying.



-Tres

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Re: Survey results

Tres Finocchiaro
does 64bit lmms run 32bit vst's?

Yes and this is true on both Linux (via Wine) as well as Windows (via 32-bit VST bridge) via: Win64/CMakeLists.txt#L4 and VstPlugin.cpp#L107

It is actually one area which we shine (thanks Toby!).  Ableton 64-bit (for example) cannot do this out of the box and requires the purchase of a 3rd party VST bridge.

-Tres


On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Dave French <[hidden email]> wrote:
does 64bit lmms run 32bit vst's?

On 10 February 2015 at 15:39, Tres Finocchiaro <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hmm... I just realized how misleading that question is... 

64 bit computer

Users could have an AMD64 cpu running Windows XP and they wouldn't be lying. 

Users could have a Core 2 Duo running Ubuntu 14.04 x86 and they wouldn't be lying.

Users could have a first generation AMD64 cpu running Windows XP 64-bit, but running 32-bit LMMS and they wouldn't be lying.



-Tres

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Re: Survey results

Stian Jørgensrud
In reply to this post by Tres Finocchiaro
Tres Finocchiaro wrote
>
> * Almost everyone got a 64 bit computer!


No they don't.  This is why we have to be careful with what we infer from
survey results...

Win32 download stats:

   - Approx *30,000* downloads since 12/23

Win64 download stats:

   - Approx *42,000* downloads since 12/23

OSX download stats (64-bit)

   - Approx *5,000* downloads since 12/23
-Tres
I think the download numbers are lying more than the survey, but I agree on that it is far from certain most of the users actually run 64 bit OS. And the next time I should probably ask about 64/32 bit LMMS too.
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Re: Survey results

Tres Finocchiaro
I think the download numbers are lying more than the survey,

How exactly?  Do you think there is a 32-bit troll that keeps clicking on it for fun?  What do you mean by this statement?

 
the next time I should probably ask about 64/32 bit LMMS too.

I think that is the only valid information.  I'm not sure what their architecture or OS architecture really tells us or what value it has to the project.

i.e. Of course they are all 64-bit machines, it is hard to find a machine that is not 64-bit capable in the Windows/Linux/Mac landscape (right?)

-Tres


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Re: Survey results

Stian Jørgensrud
Tres Finocchiaro wrote
>
> I think the download numbers are lying more than the survey,


How exactly?  Do you think there is a 32-bit troll that keeps clicking on
it for fun?  What do you mean by this statement?
Sorry, realized that I should explained more after sending the mail. That the downloads didn't tell how many 64 bit machines and OS'es the userbase consists of. Many just use 32 bit because they are used to it (and maybe experience less bugs), even though they are capable of running LMMs 64 bit. You are completely correct that the real question should be what LMMS type they are running. I didn't think so much about it when I snagged it from Dave's proposal questions.

We can do better next time ;) And hopefully more people than me (and maybe Uros) can check the survey on beforehand then!
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Re: Survey results

midi-pascal
In reply to this post by Tres Finocchiaro
On 15-02-10 01:04 PM, Tres Finocchiaro wrote:
I think the download numbers are lying more than the survey,

How exactly?  Do you think there is a 32-bit troll that keeps clicking on it for fun?  What do you mean by this statement?

 
the next time I should probably ask about 64/32 bit LMMS too.

I think that is the only valid information.  I'm not sure what their architecture or OS architecture really tells us or what value it has to the project.

i.e. Of course they are all 64-bit machines, it is hard to find a machine that is not 64-bit capable in the Windows/Linux/Mac landscape (right?)

Do not forget people - like me - who keep their box until it dies, for various reasons like lack of money, environmental conciousness or whatever reason. I am perfectly happy with my good old  Dell P4 (32 bit) which runs Lmms under Ubuntu without a glitch for years. I admit the box works hard for Lmms, but it does the job up to now :-)
-Tres



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Re: Survey results

musikbear
..but dl ( and not including linux) 77k ! since dec !
* 120 peeps did the survey
* about 20-30 peeps are 'regulars' on forum
* forum has 1347 members
* most logged in at a day : 60
* FB has 2772 'likes'

imo these 'social' numbers does not 'match' with the dl numbers..
it would be extremely interesting to know Why people eiter do not like to follow lmms on either platforms or actually does dl, but either never install (<-because its free?) or (worse) give up on lmms..

The number discrepency could also emerge from dl's who does not use social-media at all..
One such reason could be that a huge bulk of dl comes from china, and other non-english speaking areas?

Several interesting focus point here:

* Are there any demographic in the dl statistic?
* Could a 'Would you like to give the project feedback' form be part of the installation process?
* Could the un-installation process have a 'Would you like to tell why you choose not to use lmms' (upgraders would be annoyed here, alas)

Finally, i smiled a bit on the x32 / x64 conversation, and two somewhat related storries came to my mind:

"If you have a fire breaking out in your apartment, What ever you do, do NOT call the fire-deperment!
All Statistics shows, that the more fire-fighters that arives at a fire, the worst is the damage"

"There are three types of lies:
1) normal lying
2) bloody lying
3) statistics"


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Re: Survey results

Phil (list)
On Fri, 2015-02-13 at 03:35 -0700, musikbear wrote:

> ..but dl ( and not including linux) 77k ! since dec !
> * 120 peeps did the survey
> * about 20-30 peeps are 'regulars' on forum
> * forum has 1347 members
> * most logged in at a day : 60
> * FB has 2772 'likes'
>
> imo these 'social' numbers does not 'match' with the dl numbers..
> it would be extremely interesting to know Why people eiter do not like to
> follow lmms on either platforms or actually does dl, but either never
> install (<-because its free?) or (worse) give up on lmms..
>

And they never will.  You're only going to see a tiny subset of users
engaged enough to want to keep up to date with the project.  Still, it's
a useful sampling to get feedback from the most engaged users who
happened to see and respond to the survey.

> The number discrepency could also emerge from dl's who does not use
> social-media at all..

Yes.

> One such reason could be that a huge bulk of dl comes from china, and other
> non-english speaking areas?
>

Also yes.

And don't forget the people who download LMMS, play with it for a few
minutes and either have problems or otherwise decide it isn't for them.
And the users who download multiple times (either they have multiple
machines and re-downloading is easiest for them or they have problems
with the download etc.)  Downloads != active users or even active
installs.  I'll take a wild guess that the active users are <10% of the
download number.

> Several interesting focus point here:
>
> * Are there any demographic in the dl statistic?
> * Could a 'Would you like to give the project feedback' form be part of the
> installation process?
> * Could the un-installation process have a 'Would you like to tell why you
> choose not to use lmms' (upgraders would be annoyed here, alas)
>

You could do that, but don't expect data that's much better than what
the survey produced.  There's a reason (having nothing to do with
advertising) that analytics have taken over:  most users generally can't
or won't provide the feedback you really need to know.  If what you
really want to know are active users by platform, what sound system
they're using, is feature X really even being used, what are the most
common bugs, etc. it would be far more useful to implement anonymous
analytics with an easy opt-out mechanism and the data would be orders of
magnitude better.

> Finally, i smiled a bit on the x32 / x64 conversation, and two somewhat
> related storries came to my mind:
>
> "If you have a fire breaking out in your apartment, What ever you do, do NOT
> call the fire-deperment!
> All Statistics shows, that the more fire-fighters that arives at a fire, the
> worst is the damage"
>
> "There are three types of lies:
> 1) normal lying
> 2) bloody lying
> 3) statistics"
>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics



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Re: Survey results

Tres Finocchiaro
> One such reason could be that a huge bulk of dl comes from china, and other
> non-english speaking areas?

Possible, but unlikely.




On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Phil (list) <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, 2015-02-13 at 03:35 -0700, musikbear wrote:
> ..but dl ( and not including linux) 77k ! since dec !
> * 120 peeps did the survey
> * about 20-30 peeps are 'regulars' on forum
> * forum has 1347 members
> * most logged in at a day : 60
> * FB has 2772 'likes'
>
> imo these 'social' numbers does not 'match' with the dl numbers..
> it would be extremely interesting to know Why people eiter do not like to
> follow lmms on either platforms or actually does dl, but either never
> install (<-because its free?) or (worse) give up on lmms..
>

And they never will.  You're only going to see a tiny subset of users
engaged enough to want to keep up to date with the project.  Still, it's
a useful sampling to get feedback from the most engaged users who
happened to see and respond to the survey.

> The number discrepency could also emerge from dl's who does not use
> social-media at all..

Yes.

> One such reason could be that a huge bulk of dl comes from china, and other
> non-english speaking areas?
>

Also yes.

And don't forget the people who download LMMS, play with it for a few
minutes and either have problems or otherwise decide it isn't for them.
And the users who download multiple times (either they have multiple
machines and re-downloading is easiest for them or they have problems
with the download etc.)  Downloads != active users or even active
installs.  I'll take a wild guess that the active users are <10% of the
download number.

> Several interesting focus point here:
>
> * Are there any demographic in the dl statistic?
> * Could a 'Would you like to give the project feedback' form be part of the
> installation process?
> * Could the un-installation process have a 'Would you like to tell why you
> choose not to use lmms' (upgraders would be annoyed here, alas)
>

You could do that, but don't expect data that's much better than what
the survey produced.  There's a reason (having nothing to do with
advertising) that analytics have taken over:  most users generally can't
or won't provide the feedback you really need to know.  If what you
really want to know are active users by platform, what sound system
they're using, is feature X really even being used, what are the most
common bugs, etc. it would be far more useful to implement anonymous
analytics with an easy opt-out mechanism and the data would be orders of
magnitude better.

> Finally, i smiled a bit on the x32 / x64 conversation, and two somewhat
> related storries came to my mind:
>
> "If you have a fire breaking out in your apartment, What ever you do, do NOT
> call the fire-deperment!
> All Statistics shows, that the more fire-fighters that arives at a fire, the
> worst is the damage"
>
> "There are three types of lies:
> 1) normal lying
> 2) bloody lying
> 3) statistics"
>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics



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Re: Survey results

Spekular R

I'd like to make a very important distinction. Opt-in analytics are totally fine with me. Opt-out analytics not so much.


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Re: Survey results

Phil (list)
On Fri, 2015-02-13 at 23:48 +0100, Spekular R wrote:
> I'd like to make a very important distinction. Opt-in analytics are
> totally fine with me. Opt-out analytics not so much.
>
Yeah, I know that opt-out isn't terribly popular due to the bad
reputation analytics have gotten due to shady business practices.  The
problem is that the vast majority of users tend to leave EVERYTHING at
the defaults.  This is why ridiculous numbers of users are still using
their default browser, default search engine, etc.  It takes a
significant amount of pain before most of them can be bothered to figure
out how to change anything.  So the problem is, the group of people who
would benefit the most (and care the least) will never opt-in unless
it's done for them.

Opt-out, if done properly (i.e. collecting only what's really needed to
support the app) and still providing the user an easy and transparent
way to do so (i.e. no hiding opting out, no automatic re-enabling etc.),
is probably the best compromise most cases.  For most commercial
software the argument is already over: it's mostly forced opt-in with a
small number of developers offering opt out (or worse: the larger
players put on a bit of opt-out privacy theater which is mostly
pointless).

That said, I don't know that opt-in or opt-out even matters for LMMS at
this stage as the plate seems to be pretty full with the information
already available.


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Re: Survey results

Spekular R

We could have a checkbox (unchecked default) or popup during installation or first time launch. I'm pretty sure the settings appear on first launch, and users will need to open them anyways to configure their sound device.

Alternatively we log anonymous info to a text file. I actually like this idea better. Nobody except the user has access and if they want to share it it's a conscious choice, plus we don't need to deal with setting up networking stuff in LMMS.


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Re: Survey results

Tres Finocchiaro
In reply to this post by Spekular R

I agree with opt-in, if we ever decide to gather such data.


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